Implications of.....keeping the speed up

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 18:49:27 GMT, Jose
wrote:

Could you explain? I'm talking ifr here, and imc. Using my example,
you're at 6000 feet msl over the appalachians. How is 2500 AGL easy
to eyeball?

I suppose under those circumstances, it would be challenging. However,
the 2500 foot rule only applies within four miles of a class C or D
airport. That would place you right in the traffic pattern, and it's
unlikely that ATC would route you through there


It might be unlikely, but it is still my responsibility to ensure this
speed restriction, not atc's. Am I misinformed?
Stan

wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 08:21:47 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:

Pilots are routinely taken below the floor of Class B airspace when
exceeding 200 knots. Most airline pilots have no idea where the
boundaries or floors of Class B airspace are located. No one cares
except the occasional fed on the jump seat who has a thing about it.


This is what I've observed too. Pilots flying hi level do not bother
with low level charts nor class B charts. Only hi level charts and
sid/star charts. Not saying it is safe, legal or proper, just that
it's normal ops.

It is impossible to figure out Class B from a paper chart in a jet
transport with all the more important stuff that has to be done.

With boundaries and altitude limits display electronically, it is
possible but still a lot of distraction. Try it with a Garmin with all
the aural elerts set and it is a pain. With a Garmin, it works well to
avoid Class B when VFR, but to use it to assure containment when on a
clearance within Class B, it becomes overwhelming.

Sam, would it be true too for the 2500 AGL within 4 nm limitation too,
in your opinion?

No. It is far easier to figure out where the stand-alone Class D
airspace is located.

Secondly, is there some atc requirement that if your destination is
the primary airport in a class B, then atc is required to keep you in
class B, and not vector you below?

That is policy to the extent it can be done without creating some other
traffic problem. But, there is no "rule."

It might be unlikely, but it is still my responsibility to ensure this
speed restriction, not atc's. Am I misinformed?

Regarding the 2500 foot rule, it's prefaced by something like "unless
authorized or required by ATC...". If ATC says to keep your speed up, I
would say that counts as an authorization to keep your speed up.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
It might be unlikely, but it is still my responsibility to ensure this
speed restriction, not atc's. Am I misinformed?


Regarding the 2500 foot rule, it's prefaced by something like "unless
authorized or required by ATC...". If ATC says to keep your speed up, I
would say that counts as an authorization to keep your speed up.


Nope. ATC does not overide the FAR's. The pilot is always responsible
for not busting the speed limit.

Nope. ATC does not overide the FAR's.

The FAR's what? (you probably meant plural, not posessive)

My statement doesn't require ATC to "override" the FARs. Rather, ATC's
authority to grant permission to fly at higher speed (in the case in
question) is explicitly written =into= the FARs. At least the way I
read them. I'm looking at 91.117(b), and the words "by ATC".

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
Nope. ATC does not overide the FAR's.


The FAR's what? (you probably meant plural, not posessive)

My statement doesn't require ATC to "override" the FARs. Rather, ATC's
authority to grant permission to fly at higher speed (in the case in
question) is explicitly written =into= the FARs. At least the way I
read them. I'm looking at 91.117(b), and the words "by ATC".

Jose

You are correct. "Unless authorize by ATC" is authority from the
Administrator for ATC to supercede whatever the relevant FAR says.

When it says "Unless otherwise authorized by the Adminstrator" then ATC
is out of the picture.

Sam Spade wrote:
Secondly, is there some atc requirement that if your destination is
the primary airport in a class B, then atc is required to keep you in
class B, and not vector you below?

That is policy to the extent it can be done without creating some other
traffic problem. But, there is no "rule."

Althought ATC can authorized it, there is a rule.
91.131
(2) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large
turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which
a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the
designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral
limits of that area.

Why do I get the feeling that none of you guys have ever flown anything
that does 250 knots?

-Robert, CFII

On 7 Jan 2007 21:11:01 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:


Sam Spade wrote:
Secondly, is there some atc requirement that if your destination is
the primary airport in a class B, then atc is required to keep you in
class B, and not vector you below?

That is policy to the extent it can be done without creating some other
traffic problem. But, there is no "rule."

Althought ATC can authorized it, there is a rule.
91.131
(2) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large
turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which
a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the
designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral
limits of that area.

Why do I get the feeling that none of you guys have ever flown anything
that does 250 knots?

That's why I'm waiting to finish the G-III before joining this thread.
Vne on the Deb is 225....MPH so it won't be with that.

-Robert, CFII
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Sam Spade wrote:
That is policy to the extent it can be done without creating some other
traffic problem. But, there is no "rule."

First off, I'm a (very) light a/c IFR pilot. But having listened to
Channel 9 on UA for 135000 miles this past year, it is my (again,
limited) understanding/guess that on the approach the IAS is per the
pilots discretion AND within the FAR's. If there will be a traffic
problem, then ATC will issue to the affected a/c either delay vectors or
speed restrictions. It is common to hear "maintain 180 IAS until 6 DME"
where the pilots slow the plane to landing speed while descending on
the ILS. I don't recall clearance of a IAS "at least 200" as I usually
mentally read back clearances but I personally don't have to worry about
the FAR's since I'm a lowly piece of luggage at seat 2A on a A320 rather
than being the busdriver. I only wish an Archer could go that fast. I
just wish I could rent an Airbus for 100k frequent flier miles per hour.
;-)


Gerald

G. Sylvester writes:

First off, I'm a (very) light a/c IFR pilot. But having listened to
Channel 9 on UA for 135000 miles this past year ...

Is that like spending hundreds of hours with a simulator?

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