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#31
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How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C
In rec.aviation.piloting Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Jun 24, 9:45?am, Jim Pennino wrote: I'm aware of ITER and the fact that *IF* ITER is a success, you can expect an operational fusion power plant no earlier than 2040, by which time a good percentage of current posters, including myself, will be long dead. I don't see why the long time until payback is an issue. My attitude is that we've already squandered enough of our grandkids' resources, the very least we can do is throw them a bone. Comparing the risk/ benefit ratio of ITER with that of other current nonsense like the war in Iraq, it seems like a no-brainer to me. The long lead time isn't an issue, it is reality. Fusion holds the promise of solving a huge percentage of the worlds energy problems if it can be make to work. The reality is it will not be before 2040 that the first one goes into operation, and only then if ITER is a success. And even if ITER doesn't meet full success, the lessons of its failure will drive all sorts of different technology innovations. It is more likely it will drive ITER-B. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#32
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How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C
In rec.aviation.piloting Dylan Smith wrote:
On 2008-06-24, wrote: Batteries have been under development for well over a hundred years. But not all batteries are equal. I have a small radio controlled helicopter. It has full cyclic and collective pitch controls, tail rotor, etc. It runs off a battery, and this helicopter would have not been practical just 20 years ago. What made it practical is the lithium polymer battery, and making the electronics to control a small but very powerful brushless motor small enough and light enough. Everything else could have been built 20 years ago (the main rotor blades are wooden and the PPM receiver is old hat). It took about 15 years for the LiPoly battery to go from the lab to a widely available commercial technology. In the lab, they've increased the LiPoly battery's energy density by an order of magnitude (so based on past performance, it'll be 15-20 years before we get to see this in the shops). Yeah, new stuff gets invented all the time. Thanks for the news flash, I didn't know that. The point is electrochemistry is NOT a new field of science and all the easy stuff has already been done. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#33
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How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C
"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
... On Jun 24, 9:45 am, Jim Pennino wrote: I'm aware of ITER and the fact that *IF* ITER is a success, you can expect an operational fusion power plant no earlier than 2040, by which time a good percentage of current posters, including myself, will be long dead. I don't see why the long time until payback is an issue. My attitude is that we've already squandered enough of our grandkids' resources, the very least we can do is throw them a bone. Comparing the risk/ benefit ratio of ITER with that of other current nonsense like the war in Iraq, it seems like a no-brainer to me. And even if ITER doesn't meet full success, the lessons of its failure will drive all sorts of different technology innovations. Thanks, Bob K. Yes, we can live much better on less. No, there is not a dire problem as you appear to suppose. In fact the known petroleum reserves, both in quantity and expected duration are greater than they were fifty years ago. In addition, as a result of a link in a recent thread which I cannot currently find, I also read of an experimental technique using genetically engineered "bugs" to eat waste products and excerete petroleum. IMHO, there is ample reason to suppose that the "genetic engineering" merely recreatess something that existed previously and produced the copeous quantity of petroleum that lies beneath our planet's surface. The article about the experiment can be read at: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4133668.ece Peter |
#34
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How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:56:29 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote in : "Larry Dighera" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:54:33 +0000 (UTC), Dylan Smith wrote in : All the Li-Ion batteries that have burned have had causes, too. (Faulty charging circuitry in the main). I wouldn't expect faulty charging circuitry to be the main cause of lithium batteries spontaneously catching fire. Here is the cause of the massive Sony battery recall: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060928-7858.html They cite microscopic metal particles that enter the battery during the manufacturing process as the reason for the battery failures. The particles, they say, come into contact with other parts of the battery cell, causing the battery to short-circuit. Sony claims that these batteries would normally just power off, but in "rare cases" may overheat and cause flames. IMHO, that is far more frightening than charging problems! Peter As technology advances and the energy density of batteries increases, there is a higher probability of more spectacular failure modes. Here are some more things to think about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery Safety Lithium-ion batteries can rupture, ignite, or explode when exposed to high temperature environments, for example in an area that is prone to prolonged direct sunlight.[40] Short-circuiting a Li-ion battery can cause it to ignite or explode, and as such, any attempt to open or modify a Li-ion battery's casing or circuitry is dangerous. Li-ion batteries contain safety devices that protect the cells inside from abuse, and, if damaged, can cause the battery to ignite or explode. Contaminants inside the cells can defeat these safety devices. For example, the mid-2006 recall of approximately 10 million Sony batteries used in Dell, Sony, Apple, Lenovo/IBM, Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, Fujitsu and Sharp laptops was stated to be as a consequence of internal contamination with metal particles. Under some circumstances, these can pierce the separator, causing the cell to short, rapidly converting all of the energy in the cell to heat resulting in an exothermic oxidizing reaction, increasing the temperature to a few hundred degrees Celsius in a fraction of a second.[41] This causes the neighboring cells to heat up, causing a chain thermal reaction. The mid-2006 Sony laptop battery recall was not the first of its kind, however it was the largest to date. During the past decade there have been numerous recalls of lithium-ion batteries in cellular phones and laptops owing to overheating problems. In October 2004, Kyocera Wireless recalled approximately 1 million batteries used in cellular phones, due to counterfeit batteries produced in Kyocera's name.[42] In December 2006, Dell recalled approximately 22,000 batteries from the U.S. market.[43] In March 2007, Lenovo recalled approximately 205,000 9-cell lithium-ion batteries due to an explosion risk. In August 2007, Nokia recalled over 46 million lithium-ion batteries, warning that some of them might overheat and possibly explode.[44] There was an incident in the Philippines involving a Nokia N91, which uses the BL-5C battery.[45] It is possible to replace the lithium cobalt oxide cathode material in li-ion batteries with lithiated metal phosphate cathodes that are not as sensitive to temperature, and so are less prone to explode. This also extends their shelf life. However, currently these 'safer' li-ion batteries are mainly destined for electric cars and other large-capacity battery applications, where the safety issues are more critical. Unfortunately, a problem with these 'safer' li-ion batteries is that lithiated metal phosphate batteries hold only about 75 percent as much energy.[46] Another option is to use manganese oxide or iron phosphate cathode. http://www.batteriesdigest.com/lithium_ion_recall.htm The Apple recall of Computer Batteries Lithium-ion batteries in computers were once again voluntarily recalled in May 2005 when Apple, in conjunction with the U.S. Product Safety Commission, said that an internal short in three model notebooks could have battery cells which could overheat and pose a fire hazard to consumers. Apple received six reports worldwide of batteries overheating, including two in the United States. The batteries are said to be manufactured by LG Chem Ltd., of South Korea. The computers were sold through regional resellers, catalogers, and Apple’s on-line retail stores with batteries from October 2004 through May 2005 for between $900 to $2,300. The batteries also were sold separately for about $130. Although Sony and LG chem have provided the bulk of Lithium-ion batteries for Apple Computer, about 20 percent have been supplied by DynaPack, a Taiwan-based company. According to an article in the DigiTimes, DynaPack began shipments to Apple for its Powerbook earlier this year and Simplo, another Taiwan-based company will begin shipments to Apple starting at the end of the year. (“Apple notebook battery recall may benefit Taiwan makers” by Huang Kung Tien, Taipei; Jessie Shen, DigiTimes.com, 05/25/05) |
#35
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How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C
"Peter Dohm" wrote in message . .. but in "rare cases" may overheat and cause flames. IMHO, that is far more frightening than charging problems! In "rare cases" entire tanks of 100LL have been known to burst into flames, even explode! In less rare cases, fuel lines have been know to fail, dousing the engine area with highly flammable fuel...with predictable results. Vaughn |
#36
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How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C
Dylan Smith wrote in
: On 2008-06-25, Bertie the Bunyip wrote: You mean the refueling accidents? That wasn't spontaneous, they both had causes, static and wide cut fuel.. One incident I have in mind was a near empty centre tank combined with an electrical fault - May 1990, Phillippine Air Lines (on the ground, 8 died). There was another one I remember more recently, but I can't find any information about it (perhaps I've mentally duplicated the Phillippine Air Lines incident). Didn't know about that accident. Very interesting. We're only allowed to burn our center tank down to about 1,000 lbs of fuel. Maintenance empty the rest occasionally, but mostly we're running around with that much much of the time due to this concern. All the Li-Ion batteries that have burned have had causes, too. Yeah, but not "spontaneous" Bertie |
#37
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How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C
Andrew Sarangan wrote:
You can add fuel cells to that list too, as a recent development. But I am sure one could claim that fuel cells are in the Smithsonian museum as a century-old technology. Actually, the fuel cell was invented in 1839 so the Smithsonian may actually have one! http://www.nuvant.com/education/who.html Scott |
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