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What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to a glider?



 
 
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  #41  
Old February 7th 21, 03:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to a glider?

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 5:18:16 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
On 2/6/21 8:05 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20 years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs. Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows with the differential in the price of a motorglider. As far as propulsion type, I don't particularly care for the limited battery capacity due to poor energy density compared to fuel. And don't kid yourself that batteries are completely safe. Any energy storage system has risks of 'dumping' that energy in an enthusiastic manner. Everybody screeching about getting rid of oil & gas had better do some research on what it takes to produce a wind turbine. (Hint: They don't grow from magic beans.) And you might not have noticed, but there are NO solar-powered solar cell factories. And the Tesla S 100 kWh battery (1,375 lbs.) stores the energy equivalent of 2.1 gallons of AvGas.

Perfect solution would be a battery-powered winch. Hook a bunch of
batteries up to a motor, hook the motor up to a drum. How hard could
that be? No folding props to deal with, no certification, no annual
inspections, no insurance, no skilled labor required to run it. Plus
you don't have to carry a load of undumpable ballast around with you all
the time.


I ran into a guy (who's name I can't remember) at the 2016 Reno Convention who's club was in the process of designing an electric winch using direct DC drive. It is a non-trivial task.

Tom
  #42  
Old February 7th 21, 02:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to aglider?

On Sat, 06 Feb 2021 18:18:11 -0700, kinsell wrote:

On 2/6/21 8:05 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into a
fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders
and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20
years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered
ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch
endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet
powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the
challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs. Sure,
I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows with
the differential in the price of a motorglider. As far as propulsion
type, I don't particularly care for the limited battery capacity due to
poor energy density compared to fuel. And don't kid yourself that
batteries are completely safe. Any energy storage system has risks of
'dumping' that energy in an enthusiastic manner. Everybody screeching
about getting rid of oil & gas had better do some research on what it
takes to produce a wind turbine. (Hint: They don't grow from magic
beans.) And you might not have noticed, but there are NO solar-powered
solar cell factories. And the Tesla S 100 kWh battery (1,375 lbs.)
stores the energy equivalent of 2.1 gallons of AvGas.


Perfect solution would be a battery-powered winch. Hook a bunch of
batteries up to a motor, hook the motor up to a drum. How hard could
that be? No folding props to deal with, no certification, no annual
inspections, no insurance, no skilled labor required to run it. Plus
you don't have to carry a load of undumpable ballast around with you all
the time.


http://www.startwinde.de/startseite.html



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #43  
Old February 7th 21, 02:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to aglider?

On Sat, 06 Feb 2021 18:05:35 -0800, 2G wrote:

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 5:18:16 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
On 2/6/21 8:05 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into
a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over
motorgliders and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang
gliding and 20 years of gliding (45 years total). I played around
with powered ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self
launch endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings
in jet powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for
the challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs.
Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of
tows with the differential in the price of a motorglider. As far as
propulsion type, I don't particularly care for the limited battery
capacity due to poor energy density compared to fuel. And don't kid
yourself that batteries are completely safe. Any energy storage
system has risks of 'dumping' that energy in an enthusiastic manner.
Everybody screeching about getting rid of oil & gas had better do
some research on what it takes to produce a wind turbine. (Hint: They
don't grow from magic beans.) And you might not have noticed, but
there are NO solar-powered solar cell factories. And the Tesla S 100
kWh battery (1,375 lbs.) stores the energy equivalent of 2.1 gallons
of AvGas.

Perfect solution would be a battery-powered winch. Hook a bunch of
batteries up to a motor, hook the motor up to a drum. How hard could
that be? No folding props to deal with, no certification, no annual
inspections, no insurance, no skilled labor required to run it. Plus
you don't have to carry a load of undumpable ballast around with you
all the time.


I ran into a guy (who's name I can't remember) at the 2016 Reno
Convention who's club was in the process of designing an electric winch
using direct DC drive. It is a non-trivial task.

My club looked at it. The German Startwinde winch is basically a big
brushless motor and an aluminium shell stuffed with truck batteries. Its
designed to run off mains power with the batteries acting as a buffer
between the steady mains feed (7-20kW) and the 200kW brushless electric
motor.

Consequently you need to run HD cables to the various points on the
airfield where you position the winch depending on the wind direction. As
I said, we looked in to it but the cable costs made it unattractive
because there are four places were we set up our winch depending on the
wind, only two of them are near the clubhouse and its mains supply: the
other two are about 1km away in different directions. So, we ended up
getting a Skylaunch winch with a big V8 running off LPG instead.

That said, you could also run an electric winch off an 8-12kW builder's
trailer generator parked alongside it, but I have no idea of the
economics of that compared with either wiring the airfield or running a
Skylaunch or similar winch.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #44  
Old February 7th 21, 02:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to aglider?

On 2/6/21 7:05 PM, 2G wrote:

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 5:18:16 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:

On 2/6/21 8:05 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:

Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20 years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs. Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows with the differential in the price of a motorglider. As far as propulsion type, I don't particularly care for the limited battery capacity due to poor energy density compared to fuel. And don't kid yourself that batteries are completely safe. Any energy storage system has risks of 'dumping' that energy in an enthusiastic manner. Everybody screeching about getting rid of oil & gas had better do some research on what it takes to produce a wind turbine. (Hint: They don't grow from magic beans.) And you might not have noticed, but there are NO solar-powered solar cell factories. And the Tesla S 100 kWh battery (1,375 lbs.) stores the energy equivalent of 2.1 gallons of AvGas.


Perfect solution would be a battery-powered winch. Hook a bunch of
batteries up to a motor, hook the motor up to a drum. How hard could
that be? No folding props to deal with, no certification, no annual
inspections, no insurance, no skilled labor required to run it. Plus
you don't have to carry a load of undumpable ballast around with you all
the time.


I ran into a guy (who's name I can't remember) at the 2016 Reno Convention who's club was in the process of designing an electric winch using direct DC drive. It is a non-trivial task.

Tom



Yes I was being a bit sarcastic on the challenges of pulling it off.

I suspect you ran into Mr Bill Daniels at the 2018 convention. Haven't
followed that closely, but have heard the project has been put to bed
with no actual winch produced. Lots of fancy slides however:

https://www.hdelectriclaunch.com/

Whatever happened to the guy who claimed he could design and build a
working electric motorglider in a mere three months? Must be true, read
it right here on R.A.S. I'll bet he could knock out an electric winch
in just a couple weeks.
  #45  
Old February 7th 21, 04:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to aglider?

Yeah... He's suggested it, but I'm done with towing... :{)

Dan
5J

On 2/6/21 5:19 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 2/6/2021 4:01 PM:
My gliding buddy has a '27 and we like to go on safari.Â* That's
difficult unless we can find a place with tows.Â* To date we've gone to
Salida, CO and Nephi and Logan, UT.Â* He doesn't want to buy a
self-launcher yet so he's looking to borrow or lease one.

Dan
5J


Stemme tow hook retrofit? Then you'd both begin soaring at the same
time! Or, or Auto tow him, then jump into the Stemme?

  #46  
Old February 7th 21, 04:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to aglider?

Good idea! He's offered to pay to install a hook on our Cessna 180, but
my insurance company says, "NO". So do I.

Dan
5J

On 2/6/21 5:55 PM, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 4:01:46 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
My gliding buddy has a '27 and we like to go on safari. That's
difficult unless we can find a place with tows. To date we've gone to
Salida, CO and Nephi and Logan, UT. He doesn't want to buy a
self-launcher yet so he's looking to borrow or lease one.

Dan
5J
On 2/6/21 9:35 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Mark Mocho wrote on 2/6/2021 7:05 AM:
Sorry, but I disagree that electrics will turn "pure" sailplanes into
a fringe activity. I personally like pure sailplanes over motorgliders
and sustainers. Probably comes from 28 years of hang gliding and 20
years of gliding (45 years total). I played around with powered
ultralights, but never really wanted one. I have a self launch
endorsement in gliders (as well as two turbojet Type Ratings in jet
powered two-seat gliders), but I prefer unpowered flight for the
challenge, as well as lower complexity and lower insurance costs.
Sure, I am forced to depend on tows, but you can pay for a LOT of tows
with the differential in the price of a motorglider.

Paying for tows isn't what bothers people that buy self-launching
motorgliders. We do it because there aren't any tows where or when we
want to fly. A secondary reason, and one a sustainer can fix, is getting
home reliably. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best one we've ever
owned (it's number 5) because it always gets home :^)

It's interesting technically to talk about energy density of gas vs
batteries, but it's irrelevant to the glider pilot, who wants a good
takeoff climb rate, enough range to get home after misjudging the
weather, simple operation, and low maintenance. Increasingly, it's the
electric gliders that can provide these features.

What stops most people from owning a motorglider is cost, which has
always been true, even before jet and electric gliders came along. The
factories are selling more powered sailplanes than unpowered, so the
percentage of powered gliders is increasing, and they are selling an
increasing number of electric powered gliders, so I tend to agree with
Bob. Still, I think it's a long time to "fringe" status for unpowered
gliders.

A powered glider has much more potential utility than a towed glider,
making it easier for partners in a glider to get all the flying they
want. The simplicity of electric glider operation makes it easier to
find suitable partners, so I'm hoping (and expecting) partnerships will
increase significantly, and increase the number of people that want to
fly gliders, and retain those that might otherwise drop out.


He can always buy a towplane and hire a towpilot. This shouldn't cost more than $5-10k plus the cost of the towplane (which he could sell after the safari).

Tom

  #47  
Old February 7th 21, 05:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nicholas Kennedy
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Posts: 78
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to a glider?

I just read Mark Mocho's post I and I agree with everything he wrote.
Pure gliders aren't going anywhere.
1. There affordable to many many many more pilots.
2. Very low maintenance. This spring I'll pull my LS3a out, wax it, lube a few bearings, wipe it down, inspect it [ 1.5 hrs ] and fly it all summer and never do any more work to it unless I ding it up.
Total time for all this: 6 hours!
3. Its much more of a real adventure to me, to get, say, 200 miles from home in my LS3a.
4 Sure I have to travel to get tows, but I like to travel so thats OK by me.
5. I'm not a Old Rich White Guy and never will be, so my LS3a with a nice roomy cockpit and 40/1 fits into MY world as being something I can afford and have a ton of fun with.
I've been to the Parowan Motor Glider meet and let me tell you there's a lot of wrenching and the conversations generally steers toward the engine and issues with it.
If I was a ORWG I'd probably own a ASH 25E but I'm not.
Nick
T
  #48  
Old February 7th 21, 05:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to aglider?

Nicholas Kennedy wrote on 2/7/2021 8:10 AM:
I've been to the Parowan Motor Glider meet and let me tell you there's a lot of wrenching and the conversations generally steers toward the engine and issues with it.
If I was a ORWG I'd probably own a ASH 25E but I'm not.
Nick

The Parowan Motor Glider meet's biggest problem has always been getting a towplane and towpilot
for the ten towed gliders we invite each year. Getting enough towplanes and towpilots for 40
glider (normal camp size) would be far harder.

As for wrenching, my experience as part owner of a towplane included considerable wrenching
while operating it. I lost many soaring days over years because the towplane was "down"
(mechanically or lack of pilot), or suffered long lines, waiting for the remaining tow
plane(s). In 26 years of using my motorglider, I've only lost 3 or 4 days because of engine
problems.

Again: if you can get a tow where and when you want, self-launchers are a waste of time and
money. They are not good solution for many people, as the strong sales of powered gliders
indicates.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #49  
Old February 7th 21, 06:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to aglider?

Eric Greenwell wrote on 2/7/2021 8:50 AM:
Again: if you can get a tow where and when you want, self-launchers are a waste of time and
money. They are not good solution for many people, as the strong sales of powered gliders
indicates.


To clarify: "Towplanes are not a good solution for many people, as the strong sales of powered
gliders indicates"

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #50  
Old February 7th 21, 07:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default What is involved regulation wise adding an electric motor to a glider?

On 2/5/21 6:31 PM, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
but there is no way I'd trust my life to the continued operation of a
tightly-wound two-stroke motor. I didn't think I'd mess around with
motorgliders at all until brushless motors and Lithium batteries came
along. Now I think that electric motorgliders are poised to become the
core of our sport, with pure sailplanes becoming more of a fringe activity.


if you're trusting your life to the operation of any motorglider engine,
you're screwing up bigtime. Electrics can and do fail, right along with
the others.
 




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