The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 14:38:06 UTC, wrote:
Regretfully you seem to have misunderstood what has been said.

Nobody is suggesting that standing around on an airfield all day for a 20min flight is an ambition!

The idea is that fewer people would be willing to do this and as such gliding, in its current form, does not satisfy the demands of modern society.

I can see what you've said, more or less the same each time.

I'm describing the way things are, including that demand varies with the weather, and that except at the peak launching time on the busiest days they don't actually impede your wish to do things your own way, either individually or with a group of similar thinkers.

I just think yours might be a smaller market.

I am afraid that I have no idea what your point is, or how it would fit into a discussion about the decline of gliding.
As I see it, everybody has their own individual goals within gliding, yes. I'm just not sure how this is relevant to the discussion.

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 3:13:47 PM UTC, andy l wrote:
On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 14:38:06 UTC, wrote:
Regretfully you seem to have misunderstood what has been said.

Nobody is suggesting that standing around on an airfield all day for a 20min flight is an ambition!

The idea is that fewer people would be willing to do this and as such gliding, in its current form, does not satisfy the demands of modern society..

I can see what you've said, more or less the same each time.

I'm describing the way things are, including that demand varies with the weather, and that except at the peak launching time on the busiest days they don't actually impede your wish to do things your own way, either individually or with a group of similar thinkers.

I just think yours might be a smaller market.

OK- my thoughts on gliding's decline:

1-Current pilots are getting older and eventually quitting. It happens in every other sport too, and we can't really do anything about it. Viagra doesn't help in this case.
2-New participants are often discouraged by the seemingly endless process of, first, learning to fly and then learning to soar. Exceptions can be made for either pilots who are transitioning from powered aircraft (although they often keep fumbling around looking for the throttle) or pilots of other soaring aircraft (hang gliders, paragliders) who know how to find and work lift but don't know what to do with their feet. (That was me. "Running" on the rudder pedals on touchdown caused the Instructor in the back to emit loud noises.)
3-Learning can be extremely time consuming and stretch out forever. The Albuquerque Soaring Club only offers instruction one day a week, so if there are multiple students, only one or two flights per lesson might be possible. This means it could take MONTHS before getting to solo. And switching duty Instructors every week doesn't help.
4-Commercial instruction can be tailored to the student's schedule, needs and budget, but is often too expensive for younger participants. Older ones, too, but more discretionary money is generally found with more mature individuals
5-Equipment is expensive. Unless the local club or FBO has a decent fleet, you are stuck with a partnership and/or less desirable aircraft. Once again, time, opportunity and demand seem to conspire to reduce the availability of shared equipment, especially during the best soaring conditions.

I am sure there are many other reasons, but these occurred to me first. I also saw the same things at the end of my 28 years in hang gliding as I was transitioning into gliders. Hang gliding has the same problems.

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-8, Mark Mocho wrote:
OK- my thoughts on gliding's decline:

1-Current pilots are getting older and eventually quitting. It happens in every other sport too, and we can't really do anything about it. Viagra doesn't help in this case.
2-New participants are often discouraged by the seemingly endless process of, first, learning to fly and then learning to soar. Exceptions can be made for either pilots who are transitioning from powered aircraft (although they often keep fumbling around looking for the throttle) or pilots of other soaring aircraft (hang gliders, paragliders) who know how to find and work lift but don't know what to do with their feet. (That was me. "Running" on the rudder pedals on touchdown caused the Instructor in the back to emit loud noises.)
3-Learning can be extremely time consuming and stretch out forever. The Albuquerque Soaring Club only offers instruction one day a week, so if there are multiple students, only one or two flights per lesson might be possible. This means it could take MONTHS before getting to solo. And switching duty Instructors every week doesn't help.
4-Commercial instruction can be tailored to the student's schedule, needs and budget, but is often too expensive for younger participants. Older ones, too, but more discretionary money is generally found with more mature individuals
5-Equipment is expensive. Unless the local club or FBO has a decent fleet, you are stuck with a partnership and/or less desirable aircraft. Once again, time, opportunity and demand seem to conspire to reduce the availability of shared equipment, especially during the best soaring conditions.

I am sure there are many other reasons, but these occurred to me first. I also saw the same things at the end of my 28 years in hang gliding as I was transitioning into gliders. Hang gliding has the same problems.

A welcome advancement unavailable when I was learning is instruction using flight simulators such as Condor. Scott Manley has been doing this successfully for years (https://glidercfi.com/author/smanley/).

Tom

One other possible reason for a decline in new students in the US is the rather common scenario of getting somebody interested in the sport, telling them all about the great cross country flights we make and showing them the modern crop of high-performance aircraft we fly. They get excited about the concept and commit to taking lessons. Then, the club or FBO tries to stick them in a Schweizer 2-33 and they back out. I've known several folks who refused to take lessons in something that looks like Fred Flintstone built it. Fortunately, they went over to the commercial operator and started in a Grob 103. Better, but still not a Duo Discus.

One guy commented that it was a typical "Bait and Switch" ploy. He was laughing, but he was also serious. I totally understood. I did the same thing when i took lessons in 1999 from Sundance Aviation in Moriarty, NM. I refused to get in a 2-33 until the Albuquerque Soaring Club insisted I get checked out in it before I could fly their G-103, an aircraft I had flown 52 times and logged over 40 hours in (including initial training flights and a lot of pattern tows.) So, I am stuck with three flights in the 2-33 in my logbook. I was hoping I could avoid ever sitting in one.

On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 10:33:06 UTC, wrote:
While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...


My club currently operates 5 tugs and 5 K21's among other aircraft. We offer winch and aerotow launching every day - almost. I have carefully considered the pro's and con's of buying a self-launching K21 and have concluded that it does not make any sense to operate one or two of those alongside a fleet of tugs and pure gliders. Unless we totally change the nature of the operation, we still need members to volunteer for all the other tasks you mention (and many more) and we cannot generate a culture where new members think it is ok to turn up for a booked training slot, enjoy their lesson and go home. We ask students to commit to half a day at the club for their lesson - and if they find that too much then they are never going to become active glider pilots. As it happens, I don't think there is a suitable self-launching glider for the purpose - if you use a touring motor glider it is too much like a power plane, and does not feel like introducing someone to gliding, if you want a self-launching sailplane such as a K21 Mi or a DG1001M - I don't believe any have the reliability and robustness required for a training operation. And most of our current instructors are not qualified to fly them.

On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 16:19:14 -0800, waremark wrote:

I have carefully considered the pro's and con's of buying a self-
launching K21 and have concluded that it does not make any sense to
operate one or two of those alongside a fleet of tugs and pure gliders.

Out of pure curiosity, why would you consider using self-launching K-21s
when you have at least one winch?

I'd expect a well-managed winch operation would give a better launch rate
than self-launching '21s as well as (probably, guessed) a lower operating
cost?

The only improvement I've seen, for landing practise anyway, is that a
good simulator can deliver many more simulated winch launches and
landings per hour than the best winch operation can manage, mainly
because no time is wasted bringing glider and inmates back to the
launchpoint for the next flight. Experience last year has shown me that
this is not necessarily worse training than you get from a launching in a
real K21 on a real winch, BUT, the simulator needs to have a real cockpit
and a big enough projected field of view that you don't notice its edges
while you're flying the simulator.

Weather put paid to my annual flying checks last year before the first
COVID lockdown. When that was lifted I, like many club members, spent a
couple of hours in the simulator with an instructor behind a glass
partition with an intercom. After that I got sent up the winch solo in a
K-21 for a check flight, observed from the ground by the instructor.
Apart from the lack of stalling and spinning checks, this worked pretty
well and I was cleared to fly my Libelle on the next soarable day.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

There is something special about flying a helicopter. Mankind's version of a magic carpet.

On Thursday, March 11, 2021 at 11:43:09 AM UTC-8, Walt Connelly wrote:
'Martin Gregorie[_6_ Wrote:
;1040015']On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 03:28:36 -0800, R wrote:
-
To many, flying an aircraft is boring. They lost touch looking for
the magic in doing.
-
Well, lets face it, flying behind an engine *is* boring compared with
flying a sailplane - just not as boring as driving a car.

I rediscovered that a few years back when I treated myself to a flight
in
a DH Tiger Moth: that's a WW2 biplane basic trainer if you're on the
left
side of the pond. It was nice to fly, with a similar response to control

inputs as a K13, but the view forward was terrible, despite being in an

open cockpit, thanks to all those wings and engine in front. After 15
minutes or so I started to notice the lack of the stimulation we all get

from constantly sensing what the air is doing.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
If it's the view you seek try a helicopter. Stimulation? Do a full
down autorotation, a 180 autorotation, a steep approach to a confined
area with a confined area departure, recovery from Vortex Ring State.
Nothing compares with the view from a helicopter, NOTHING.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.




--
Walt Connelly

Similar problem here in the UK where people are obsessed with telling trial lessons about high-performance gliders and how competitive gliding involves flying hundreds of km faster than an F1 car.
Then they're put in the front of a K13 with an old fuddy duddy.

On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 9:22:15 PM UTC, Mark Mocho wrote:
One other possible reason for a decline in new students in the US is the rather common scenario of getting somebody interested in the sport, telling them all about the great cross country flights we make and showing them the modern crop of high-performance aircraft we fly. They get excited about the concept and commit to taking lessons. Then, the club or FBO tries to stick them in a Schweizer 2-33 and they back out. I've known several folks who refused to take lessons in something that looks like Fred Flintstone built it. Fortunately, they went over to the commercial operator and started in a Grob 103. Better, but still not a Duo Discus.

One guy commented that it was a typical "Bait and Switch" ploy. He was laughing, but he was also serious. I totally understood. I did the same thing when i took lessons in 1999 from Sundance Aviation in Moriarty, NM. I refused to get in a 2-33 until the Albuquerque Soaring Club insisted I get checked out in it before I could fly their G-103, an aircraft I had flown 52 times and logged over 40 hours in (including initial training flights and a lot of pattern tows.) So, I am stuck with three flights in the 2-33 in my logbook. I was hoping I could avoid ever sitting in one.

On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 08:45:15 UTC, wrote:
Similar problem here in the UK where people are obsessed with telling trial lessons about high-performance gliders and how competitive gliding involves flying hundreds of km faster than an F1 car.
Then they're put in the front of a K13 with an old fuddy duddy.

The UK appatently has 89 AS-K 13s and 82 ASK 21s, of which one is self-launching and not owned by a club. 52 Duo Discus, mostly privately owned of course, but the larger clubs own one or two each.

Many years ago our club had a Janus, for soaring and cross country training, but they didn't spare it rest of the time. It did plenty of evening trial flights. I remember at one time it had 5000 launches and 2000 hours (which made me criticise someone who said it never paid its way)