SAFE Winch Launching

At 15:53 13 July 2009, bildan wrote:

Look, I didn't start this thread. You don't have a perfect winch and
neither does anybody else. There's a LOT of room for improvements in
every aspect of winch design. Keep an open mind.

If you think that automatic gear changes don't matter, put a tension
logger on yours for a few launches. The results will astonish you.

What gets my dander up is "emotional" opposition to all attempts at
innovation based on the idea that your domestic winch is 'perfect'.

Sorry to ask you this again Bill, but could you please quantify what
problems your alleged 'tension spikes' actually cause? We just don't
seem to get weak link or cable breaks associated with gearchanges. Even if
they do exist, there is enough elasticity in a 1km plus winch cable to
absorb them. As you have been told repeatedly by everyone with a decent
quality automatic gearbox winch, the gear changes are totally smooth and
imperceptible at the glider end.

And can you prove that your mega expensive superwinches will do any better
in rough conditions with a wobbly student pilot at the controls of the
glider?

Derek Copeland

"Del C" wrote in message ...
At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped =
participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. The discussions =
became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.

I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the =
WinchDesign group.

I started this thread off trying to promote winch launching as a safe,
environmentally friendly and low cost means of launching gliders. Most
gliding clubs in Germany, Holland, the UK and the Eastern European
countries do the majority of their launches this way.

The problem is Bill Daniels. I have no idea what his true agenda is: Maybe
to build up a US winch building empire? However the BGA winching advisor,
who knows everything there is to know about winch launching, has also
given up posting on the Winch Design Group in disgust.

Derek Copeland

I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer.

I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future.

In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.

I can remember asking a simple naive question on the WinchDesign group and being attacted by two Europeans who thought I was taking sides in a long standing argument. I was new to the group and didn't realize I was expected to read every posting on the News Group so as to be enlightened both technically and politically before being allowed to speak. As I watched I realized that emotion was driving the threads and engineering had almost vanished in the background. So... I left.

With sadness, I see the same thing happening here. I do not have the background to take sides; however, I see that the same emotionally charged cast of characters have simply moved their fight from the Yahoo News Group to here. It is sad, because in the name of enlightening the US soaring community to the value of using a good winch system, they are planting seed of doubt as to whether any winch can really be considered safe.

I just wish for all concerned that this thread would die.

At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I
stopped participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group.
The discussions became personal, agressive, angry, and
absent of civility.

I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back
to the WinchDesign group.

Uh, no, we don't want this in the Winch Design group, either, I've had
to resort to moderating away further discussion of this particular topic.
At the moment, we're having a rather informative discussion on various
techniques for fabricating drums...

Marc

Hi Wayne,

It seems to me that you need to build up a critical mass of expertise, and
clubs with winch launching facilities in the US. In the UK I can visit 4
other clubs within a 50 mile radius of my home club who also winch launch,
so we can share experience and learn from each other. Germany is very
similar.

As I and others have pointed out before, you already have most of the
necessary ingredients to build good quality winches in the States,
particularly lots of vehicles with big powerful V8 engines and good
automatic gearboxes that can be transplanted into winches. We in Europe
actually import such things from you. Most of our winches use big block
Chevys or big secondhand diesel engines from trucks or earth movers.

Even with an almost technically perfect winch (nothing is ever totally
perfect), you will still have the occasional cable break, weak link break,
technical failure, or driver error, not to mention wing drops due to gusts.
Safe winch launching is basically about being mentally prepared to deal
with such problems as they arise. In the UK our pre-flight check list
includes an E for Eventualities, where you pre-brief yourself as to how to
deal with all the likely failures and problems that might occur during any
sort of launch, including aerotows.

Suggest that you have a read of:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm

By the way, I learnt wire launching by autowing, where about every fifth
launch was a cable break, especially as the cables became worn from
dragging them along an asphalt runway. This was far from a technically
perfect solution, but I got very good at dealing with launch failures and
never came close to killing myself. I actually had a launch failure on my
first and third solos on the same day, with only the second one going full
term to a vaguely respectable height of about 1000 feet. If anyone tells
you that autotowing is a great way of launching gliders, they are lying!
We get at least 1600 feet from our winch launches off a much shorter run.
It was still good fun though. Once we had gone solo we were also expected
to drive the towcars, after a little bit of training.

Cheers,
Derek Copeland


At 16:42 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:


I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. As =
elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer. =20

I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope
=
to get the training in the near future. =20

In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a
=
CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. There are a
=
couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; =
however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. This =
should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.

I can remember asking a simple naive question on the WinchDesign group =
and being attacted by two Europeans who thought I was taking sides in a
=
long standing argument. I was new to the group and didn't realize I was
=
expected to read every posting on the News Group so as to be enlightened
=
both technically and politically before being allowed to speak. As I =
watched I realized that emotion was driving the threads and engineering
=
had almost vanished in the background. So... I left.

With sadness, I see the same thing happening here. I do not have the =
background to take sides; however, I see that the same emotionally =
charged cast of characters have simply moved their fight from the Yahoo
=
News Group to here. It is sad, because in the name of enlightening the
=
US soaring community to the value of using a good winch system, they are
=
planting seed of doubt as to whether any winch can really be considered
=
safe.

I just wish for all concerned that this thread would die.

Derek,

You have identified a major problem in the first paragraph. It is hard to create a "critical mass" when the state where you live covers 83,642 square miles and only has a population density of 15.64 people/sq mile. The area of England is only 50,346 square mile; however, has a population density of 1,015/sq mile. Our density is only 1.6 percent of England's.

As a result of the low population density it is hard to form a viable club. Locally forming a club has been tried on at least three separate occasions all of which resulted in failure. Consequently all the local gliders are privately owned.

The large geographic provides a great opportunity to fly cross-country. All the local pilots fly cross-country. As a result we seldom have more then 10 launches a day. This makes aero-tows the most practical launch form.

Maybe this will help you understand why the Western US has not embraced the wench as our primary launch mode.

Respectfully,

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/


"Derek Copeland" wrote in message ...
Hi Wayne,

It seems to me that you need to build up a critical mass of expertise, and
clubs with winch launching facilities in the US. In the UK I can visit 4
other clubs within a 50 mile radius of my home club who also winch launch,
so we can share experience and learn from each other. Germany is very
similar.

As I and others have pointed out before, you already have most of the
necessary ingredients to build good quality winches in the States,
particularly lots of vehicles with big powerful V8 engines and good
automatic gearboxes that can be transplanted into winches. We in Europe
actually import such things from you. Most of our winches use big block
Chevys or big secondhand diesel engines from trucks or earth movers.

Even with an almost technically perfect winch (nothing is ever totally
perfect), you will still have the occasional cable break, weak link break,
technical failure, or driver error, not to mention wing drops due to gusts.
Safe winch launching is basically about being mentally prepared to deal
with such problems as they arise. In the UK our pre-flight check list
includes an E for Eventualities, where you pre-brief yourself as to how to
deal with all the likely failures and problems that might occur during any
sort of launch, including aerotows.

Suggest that you have a read of:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm

By the way, I learnt wire launching by autowing, where about every fifth
launch was a cable break, especially as the cables became worn from
dragging them along an asphalt runway. This was far from a technically
perfect solution, but I got very good at dealing with launch failures and
never came close to killing myself. I actually had a launch failure on my
first and third solos on the same day, with only the second one going full
term to a vaguely respectable height of about 1000 feet. If anyone tells
you that autotowing is a great way of launching gliders, they are lying!
We get at least 1600 feet from our winch launches off a much shorter run.
It was still good fun though. Once we had gone solo we were also expected
to drive the towcars, after a little bit of training.

Cheers,
Derek Copeland

At 23:31 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
Derek,

Maybe this will help you understand why the Western US has not embraced
=
the wench as our primary launch mode.

Respectfully,

Wayne

We gave up on that idea long ago, trying to get our ladies to run that
fast proved beynd our capabilities so we built winches instead.

On Jul 13, 10:30*am, Del C wrote:
At 15:53 13 July 2009, bildan wrote:

Look, I didn't start this thread. *You don't have a perfect winch and
neither does anybody else. *There's a LOT of room for improvements in
every aspect of winch design. *Keep an open mind.

If you think that automatic gear changes don't matter, put a tension
logger on yours for a few launches. *The results will astonish you.

What gets my dander up is "emotional" opposition to all attempts at
innovation based on the idea that your domestic winch is 'perfect'.

Sorry to ask you this again Bill, but could you please quantify what
problems your alleged 'tension spikes' actually cause? We just don't
seem to get weak link or cable breaks associated with gearchanges. Even if
they do exist, there is enough elasticity in a 1km plus winch cable to
absorb them. As you have been told repeatedly by everyone with a decent
quality automatic gearbox winch, the gear changes are totally smooth and
imperceptible at the glider end.

And can you prove that your mega expensive superwinches will do any better
in rough conditions with a wobbly student pilot at the controls of the
glider?

Derek Copeland

This is just more rabble rousing. You know the answer, you've seen
the data from winches in your own country. Seeing tension oscillate
by 80% of the tension limits is very scary and it does lead to
problems including wire and weak link breaks. You actually begged me
once not to publish the tension charts or even mention the problem.
(I saved the e-mail in case you deny it.) I have a LOT more tension
charts - really ugly ones. You don't want me to publish them either.

All the current winches are priced within a few thousand dollars of
each other so there are no "mega expensive winches" - except they're
unfortunately all too expensive.

My agenda is simple; help build the best winches in the world without
constant and distinctly unwelcome interference from people with
nothing constructive to add. In all the years you've been posting
about winch construction, you've never added a single new idea. But
you've campaigned loudly and often against any every offered by anyone
else.

I've read every BGA publication on winch launch that's ever been
published. I've read every training BGA syllabus - and I've read ALL
your accident reports. Your accident record is far from the best.
It's in a three ring binder about 4" thick on my bookshelf. Your
stuff is OK but no better than other sources.

So, here's an offer. Stop attacking everything we do and I won't
comment about the Skylaunch. We are going to build, publicly test and
write detailed articles about our winches. I expect no derogatory
commentary from you.

We are not British Subjects and certainly not your students.

"Don Johnstone" wrote in message ...
At 23:31 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
Derek,

Maybe this will help you understand why the Western US has not embraced
=
the wench as our primary launch mode.

Respectfully,

Wayne

We gave up on that idea long ago, trying to get our ladies to run that
fast proved beynd our capabilities so we built winches instead.

LOL, ... and I had tried so hard to avoid making that specific typographical error!!

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/

On Jul 13, 10:42*am, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
"Del C" wrote in ...
At 15:01 13 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
After watching this thread deteriorate, it reminds me why I stopped =
participating in the WinchDesign Yahoo news group. *The discussions =
became personal, agressive, angry, and absent of civility.

I really wish this thread would change its' tone, or move back to the =
WinchDesign group.

I started this thread off trying to promote winch launching as a safe,
environmentally friendly and low cost means of launching gliders. Most
gliding clubs in Germany, Holland, the UK and the Eastern European
countries do the majority of their launches this way.

The problem is Bill Daniels. I have no idea what his true agenda is: Maybe
to build up a US winch building empire? However the BGA winching advisor,
who knows everything there is to know about winch launching, has also
given up posting on the Winch Design Group in disgust.

Derek Copeland

I concur that the US needs an economical way to launch sailplanes. *As elsewhere in the world, a good winch seems to be the answer. *

I don't have a ground-launch endorsement in my log book; however, I hope to get the training in the near future. *

In order for the endorsement to have any value, I will need to install a CG hook on my HP-14 and travel to a facility with a winch. *There are a couple of auto/truck ground launching operation less then 300 mile; however, I will have the travel about 700 mile to use a winch. *This should give you some sense of the US lack of winch launch accessibility.


Wayne,

I was talking with Bill Corbin today about the prospect of finding a
winch for King Mountain. Any old Gehrlein model 62's languishing
about out there readers? We may be launching with one starting
Tuesday. I spent 8 hours on the tractor mowing the launch and
recovery area and runways today, such is the rain we've had in
Colorado this year.

Frank Whiteley

At 01:07 14 July 2009, bildan wrote:

This is just more rabble rousing. You know the answer, you've seen
the data from winches in your own country. Seeing tension oscillate
by 80% of the tension limits is very scary and it does lead to
problems including wire and weak link breaks. You actually begged me
once not to publish the tension charts or even mention the problem.
(I saved the e-mail in case you deny it.) I have a LOT more tension
charts - really ugly ones. You don't want me to publish them either.

All the current winches are priced within a few thousand dollars of
each other so there are no "mega expensive winches" - except they're
unfortunately all too expensive.

My agenda is simple; help build the best winches in the world without
constant and distinctly unwelcome interference from people with
nothing constructive to add. In all the years you've been posting
about winch construction, you've never added a single new idea. But
you've campaigned loudly and often against any every offered by anyone
else.

I've read every BGA publication on winch launch that's ever been
published. I've read every training BGA syllabus - and I've read ALL
your accident reports. Your accident record is far from the best.
It's in a three ring binder about 4" thick on my bookshelf. Your
stuff is OK but no better than other sources.

So, here's an offer. Stop attacking everything we do and I won't
comment about the Skylaunch. We are going to build, publicly test and
write detailed articles about our winches. I expect no derogatory
commentary from you.

We are not British Subjects and certainly not your students.

I am struggling to understand what cable tension has to do with anything.
I have been winch launched 10000 times and have driven a winch for many
more launches than that over 50 years and the only thing that concerns me
is the speed of the cable retrieval at the delivery end. Yes I use the bow
in the cable to keep the speed constant but this is a relative thing, not
an absolute. I accelerate quicker than most drivers to keep the ground run
as short as possible and to give the pilot aerodynamic control as quickly
as possible. I also reduce the speed at the top of the launch often
causing the glider to back release.
It really does not matter how it is done but the important thing is that
the control applied by the winch driver is reflected in the response of
the winch to his input at the business end.
I can think of few, if any accidents that have been caused by "tension
spikes" whatever they are, and a lot caused by varying amounts of a lack
of skill.
It is a real shame that people are being denied an economic alternative
launch procedure by ignorance. It does not have to be complicated, in fact
given the use to which it is put the simpler the better.
The winches we have in the UK work, and they work well. Reading some of
the postings about tension control has been interesting in an amusing sort
of way, well actually it's been a hoot.
Learn from the mistakes of the Munster Van Gelder winch, an excellent
winch with many advanced features, most of which are switched off in
normal operation. The servicing overhead is massive and the only people
able to run them, with one exception is the RAF. Yes it gives an
excellent launch, probably the best I have ever had but at a huge cost in
maintenance overheads. Why, because it is too complicated with too many
advanced features even when driven by what are really proffesional winch
drivers.

I am also struggling to understand why so much notice is being taken of
someone who obviously knows so little about the practical operation of
glider winches. As Wayne has said, almost no winching is carried out in
the USA so I would have thought it sensible to consult those who do
operate winches rather than some crackpot with wild ideas and zero
knowledge.