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#131
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Roy Smith wrote: wrote: No, it's not obvious to me that you telling me to hold short of the runway is because an aircraft is on final. Newps wrote: Then you are blind because the aircraft is right there on final. There are airports where you can't see final from the hold short line due to trees. Runway 29 at HPN comes to mind. That being said, I really don't see any operational difference to me why I've been asked to hold short. Whatever. If it is obvious then I don't have to tell you why. If it isn't obvious then I do, for whatever reason. Don't make it more difficult than it is. |
#132
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Airpersoj wrote: But, the tower controller issues that heading with the expectation that the TRACON will cause it to be a vector..eventually. What the hell does this mean? A heading issued is a vector. Airpersoj wrote:If the term "for radar vectors" has not been stated, the prudent pilot should ask, "Is that heading assignment for radar vectors?" To which the controller would immediately put on his kid gloves. |
#133
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"Chip Jones" wrote in message ink.net... When would an ODP ever be specifically issued unless more than one procedure was available and traffic separation depended on which one you flew? Well, how about if my life depended on flying it? That's the issue - that it is perfectly fine to depart IFR using visual terrain avoidance. That ODP's are not specifically issued/suggested/etc/otherwise to ensure the safest egress from a facility bordered by mountains; that's just wrong...to me. The last instruction I received was "proceed on course, contact departure." That was a left turn to fly the clearance issued routing. The ODP calls for a right turn. The delta is almost 80 degrees combined - a heading of 140 vice 220. So, when I contacted the tower later, I asked why a heading of 220 wasn't mentioned or suggested. Is "proceed on course" really the most appropriate instruction instead of something like "fly heading 220, contact departure"? The answer was more or less: oh no, people make the left turn all the time, maintain there own visual separation with the terrain, no problem. Why would we suggest a right turn? Besides, if you turn right according to the ODP and don't tell us, you might cause an issue with arriving traffic into the pattern (for the VFR tower). If we're not expecting that by you having made the request, that could be bad. Oh, but by the way, the military guys always turn right because they're required to fly the ODP, but we know that and expect it. But the choice is yours, just tell us, and we'll coordinate that with the APPCON. Is there a certain percentage of misconception among some pilots that they might get a bit more help than that when departing IFR from a towered facility? I think so. I think it might be far safer if the pilot was required to waive the ODP instead of the other way around. I also think the instruction to proceed on course is so ambiguous as to be dangerous, but that's just imho. |
#134
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On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:16:54 -0500, "Robert Henry"
wrote: oh no, people make the left turn all the time, maintain there own visual separation with the terrain, no problem. Why would we suggest a right turn? Besides, if you turn right according to the ODP and don't tell us, you might cause an issue with arriving traffic into the pattern (for the VFR tower). If we're not expecting that by you having made the request, that could be bad. Oh, but by the way, the military guys always turn right because they're required to fly the ODP, but we know that and expect it. But the choice is yours, just tell us, and we'll coordinate that with the APPCON. If it's VMC, then it is your responsibility to see and avoid other traffic. But it is also your perogative to fly the ODP on an IFR departure without notifying ATC. As I've said, and which you seem resistant to, that facility needs some education. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#135
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Newps wrote: Whatever. If it is obvious then I don't have to tell you why. If it isn't obvious then I do, for whatever reason. Don't make it more difficult than it is. "Whatever" says a lot. Your perspective is that of a controller who thinks in terms of trying to do the job right for eight hours, then split for a beer or whatever. ;-) The informed pilot perspective, however, is to act upon the premise of "the least cost of being wrong" when confronted with an ambiguous situation, perceived or real. It's called survival. And, for you to presume I can see the aircraft on final disregards many possibilities, including perhaps that the weather is 200 and 1/2.~ |
#136
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Greg Esres wrote: Airpersoj wrote:But, the tower controller issues that heading with the expectation that the TRACON will cause it to be a vector..eventually. Ok, I can live with that. ;-) I take it you disagree with the blanket statement that a heading and vector mean the same thing? I do, unless it is at a place where context resolves any doubt in my mind. Airpersoj wrote:If the term "for radar vectors" has not been stated, the prudent pilot should ask, "Is that heading assignment for radar vectors?" And if the answer were "No", would you infer that the controller intended the heading to apply only after flying any DP or is able to maintain his own obstruction clearance? I would infer that ATC couldn't care less; that I am solely responsible for my own obstacle clearance. I would, and have, reply that I am going to fly the XYZ DP." Airpersoj wrote: He was probably talking about a non-tower airport in Glass G airspace. Do you not think that departing a non-radar class D airport is an almost identical situation as departing a class G in regards to that initial heading assignment? It varies so, that it is probably best to start from the premise that a Class D airport without radar could provide a departure clearance similar to what a Center does out of a Class G IFR airport. (Then, there are Glass G VFR airports where it really becomes a crap shoot ;-) As to the Class D non-radar airport, it all depends upon the IFR ATC clearance they issue in the context of the obtacle environment for that airport. Bottom line: the pilot is *always* the one on the hook, first anf foremost. To keep the system working, it's the pilot's duty to challenge any ATC clearance or instruction that is ambigous, but in a cooperative manner unless urgency is of the utmost importance. |
#137
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Newps wrote: Airpersoj wrote: But, the tower controller issues that heading with the expectation that the TRACON will cause it to be a vector..eventually. What the hell does this mean? A heading issued is a vector. Airpersoj wrote:If the term "for radar vectors" has not been stated, the prudent pilot should ask, "Is that heading assignment for radar vectors?" To which the controller would immediately put on his kid gloves. |
#138
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Newps wrote: Airpersoj wrote: But, the tower controller issues that heading with the expectation that the TRACON will cause it to be a vector..eventually. What the hell does this mean? A heading issued is a vector. Ok, let me change "eventually" to "sooner or later." You can't apply the circumstances at BIL to all airports. Airpersoj wrote:If the term "for radar vectors" has not been stated, the prudent pilot should ask, "Is that heading assignment for radar vectors?" To which the controller would immediately put on his kid gloves. Sounds like a good plan to me. |
#139
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#140
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Ron Rosenfeld wrote: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:30:38 -0500, "Robert Henry" wrote: That assumes there is a problem. The way it has been explained to me is that the rules that apply for departing IFR at a non-towered field apply in this case, and that operating under the understanding that terrain separation services are available when departing a towered field (especially a VFR-only one as in my case) is just a bad one. I have read and reread this paragraph, and I must confess I don't understand what you are saying, at least in the context of ATC and ODP's. If you fly an ODP, you will have terrain separation. It doesn't matter what field you are departing from. Assuming it's an IFR airport. If not, then the airspace has not been evaluated for takeoff minimums and 40:1 surfaces. |
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