Knee Jerks

there is no excuse for [fill in] - none - zero - nada...

[i.e.] A pilot who runs out of fuel should lose his
certificate imediately and permanently.. He is not
fit to pilot an aircraft...

People make mistakes. Are you really saying that only people who do not
make mistakes should pilot an aircraft (or car or boat)?

Part of living on this planet is living with the fact that people make
mistakes, and that you, too, will make mistakes.

If
the pilot did his job he would know what the maximum crosswind the
airplane can handle is, and he would have set a maximum crosswind that
HE is prepared to handle... Should be right on his check list - e.g. 8
KT crosswind limit...

For example, you just made a mistake here. The pilot really has no way
of knowing the maximum crosswind the airplane can handle, short of
becoming a test pilot himself. The "demonstrated crosswind component"
is not what you seem to think it is.

Check the AWOS or ATIS and if it exceeds the
limit, use another runway or another airport...

.... which for many reasons beyond the pilot's control may not be
available. Short of not flying when there is the chance that a forecast
is wrong, part of living on this planet is dealing with unexpected
circumstances that may expand your envelope.

This is not by way of "excuse". Nonetheless, it is a fact. People make
mistakes. They are unfortunate, but while it is possible to have
averted any given mistake, it is not possible to avert mistakes in
general. Don't confuse the two.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

What the heck does this [Ecclesiastes quote] have to do with the topic?

Bad things happen to good people. Good people do bad things. Good
people do things that have bad consequences. It is very relevant to the
meting out of blame for accidents (look up the word "accident")

To sum up Denny's most excellent post: If you run out of gas (or do any of
the other stupid pilot tricks he outlined), you're a BAD PILOT -- period.

That is very judgemental, O Perfect One. I've read about some of the
things you claim to have done in an airplane and they don't all inspire me.

Although your flying has been flawless I'm sure, one day you =will= make
an error, be it in judgement or skill. That error may well go
undetected and you will think you are a Good Pilot. But that error may
(that time) have unfortunate consequences, leading to a flurry of
postings here.

You =will= make an error.

You =are= human.

This however does not make you a Bad Pilot.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

by Jose teacherjh@[EMAIL PROTECTED] Feb 14, 2006 at 02:24 PM


Bad things happen to good people. Good people do bad things. Good
people do things that have bad consequences. It is very relevant to the
meting out of blame for accidents (look up the word "accident")



Although your flying has been flawless I'm sure, one day you =will= make
an error, be it in judgement or skill. That error may well go
undetected and you will think you are a Good Pilot. But that error may
(that time) have unfortunate consequences, leading to a flurry of
postings here.

You =will= make an error.

You =are= human.

This however does not make you a Bad Pilot.

Excellent post, Jose. If more pilots thought like that (i.e.
circumstances and events, however unlikely, can come together to
overwhelm the skill of the pilot, regardless of how well trained) there
would probably be fewer crashes.

Knowing that you are never in complete control (in all of life's
endeavors), and that a combination of problems and/or circumstances can
result in your demise' is a healthy attitude, IMO. It makes you take less
for granted and better prepared.

Knowing that you are never in complete control (in all of life's
endeavors), and that a combination of problems and/or circumstances can
result in your demise' is a healthy attitude, IMO. It makes you take less
for granted and better prepared.

You guys are starting to scare me with this "Fate is the Hunter" hocus
pocus. We have specifically and explicitly stated that mechanical
breakdowns are NOT a part of this discussion.

I will further state that medical "breakdowns" of all kinds should be
eliminated from the mix. For example, a pilot having a stroke and crashing
should obviously not be labeled a "bad pilot".

That said, is there some other combinations of factors that could cause a
pilot to crash that could occur if the pilot WEREN'T a "bad pilot"?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

Got to agree with Matt on this one.

A pilot who crashes (again, NOT for mechanical reasons) is, by definition,
"bad" -- at least at that moment.

The fatal mid-air accident last year between two very skilled and talanted
aerobatic pilots should be a reminder that even excellent pilots sometimes
make mistakes.


--
Peter

That is very judgemental, O Perfect One. I've read about some of the
things you claim to have done in an airplane and they don't all inspire
me.

Right. And on those (thankfully, rare) occasions where I have exhibited
poor judgment, or insufficient skills, I was acting as a "Bad Pilot".
Luckily, to date, none of my relatively minor transgressions have resulted
in bent metal or injury.

However, if one makes errors that result in crashing, one is a REALLY "Bad
Pilot". If I were to crash as the result of making a poor decision, or
because of inadequate piloting skills, I would expect -- no, DEMAND -- that
you guys rip me to shreds posthumously for being a "Bad Pilot" -- because
that's exactly what I would have been.

Where's the debate?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

That said, is there some other combinations of factors that could cause a
pilot to crash that could occur if the pilot WEREN'T a "bad pilot"?

You have defined "bad pilot" as "a pilot who crashes for non-mechanical
reasons". By this definition, no.

But, what I am taking issue with is your definition of "bad pilot" (and
the presumed converse, "good pilot"). Define it independently of
crashing and then I can address the question. Be wary of definitions
such as "a good pilot is one who never..."

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

G Farris wrote:
What's important (and sometimes forgotten) is to be
sensitive to the situation, as some people are suffering
through a real tragedy at that moment. If some family
member were to browse to an aviation group looking
for answers, only to read that the pilot must have been
an idiot . . .

ICAM that the human nature speculation after an accident, when trying to
put the pieces together, should be done constructively and with respect.
But as you said, much of the speculation comes out of trying to learn
from the event and what is known about it, so we don't make the same
mistake. For that reason, I think speculation and the offshoot
discussions that arise from it can be a very beneficial thing...sounds
overly dramatic, but the resultant thinking and conversation might save
someone else.

"Skylune" wrote in message
For goodness sakes, a plane crash is NEWS!

And you know why it's news Lune? Because it is still fairly rare. Much as
the VP shooting a hunting partner is rare.

Arketip wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:
buttman wrote:

is crashing not a part of piloting?

Not if you are a good pilot.

Matt

So, you are saying that all the pilots that had a crash are bad pilots?

How about this: Can one be a bad pilot who has never crashed?

--
Peter