Glider crow-hops:

On Aug 23, 10:06*am, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

So, let's clarify. "Crow hops" are commonly done by very experienced
pilots, acting as test pilots for new designs or homebuilt aircraft.
They are doing crow hops to establish if the glider is airworthy and
controllable, and following a detailed plan. Most recently, Dick
Butler and Concordia.

"Crow hops" are not advised as a way for pilots to make a transition
to different aircraft types, especially for newer and less experienced
pilots.

The OP didn't tell us what kind of glider he had bought before
starting flying lessons, only that nobody he knew had any flight
experience in type. And he had previous building experience. This
starts to smell of new pilot AND untested glider, a homebuilt or old
project that has been sitting around for many years whose
airworthiness is in question. Needless to say that is a deadly
combination.

John Cochrane

It's an Apis 13m. Anyone with a web browser can figure that out.

You should be able to network your way to experience with the type and
develop a transition plan with an experienced CFIG. I don't see the
problem.

-Evan / T8

On Aug 23, 8:38*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Aug 23, 10:06*am, Brad wrote:









On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

So, let's clarify. "Crow hops" are commonly done by very experienced
pilots, acting as test pilots for new designs or homebuilt aircraft.
They are doing crow hops to establish if the glider is airworthy and
controllable, and following a detailed plan. Most recently, Dick
Butler and Concordia.

"Crow hops" are not advised as a way for pilots to make a transition
to different aircraft types, especially for newer and less experienced
pilots.

The OP didn't tell us what kind of glider he had bought before
starting flying lessons, only that nobody he knew had any flight
experience in type. And he had previous building experience. This
starts to smell of new pilot AND untested glider, a homebuilt or old
project that has been sitting around for many years whose
airworthiness is in question. Needless to say that is a deadly
combination.

John Cochrane

I must have missed the part where he claimed to be a "low time pilot"

here is how I define a crow-hop:

first step is to place the sailplane intake-off position, taxi tow-
plane ahead of sailplane far enough to have the prop wash be effective
for roll control authority and advance throttle.
glider pilot gets to feel the roll response of the glider, leveling
wings and picking up right then left wing.

actual take-off is a normal take off under tow and then a release from
the towplane straight-ahead and land straight ahead. airbrakes not
used the first time, landing gear not cycled. if pilot is comfortable
with this then proceed to next step.

take-off 2, same procedure except dive brakes are used, land straight
ahead.

if pilot is comfortable then either a few more of these are done or a
high tow is taken.

I would be interested in Dick Butler's explanation for not advising
crow-hops............just out of curiosity. My experience has been the
crow hop was actually more intensive than a high tow, maybe that is
what he is getting at?

Brad

On Aug 23, 9:01*am, Evan Ludeman wrote:
It's an Apis 13m. *Anyone with a web browser can figure that out.

You should be able to network your way to experience with the type and
develop a transition plan with an experienced CFIG. *I don't see the
problem.

-Evan / T8

jeez, an Apis-13......................I have 800 hours in an
Apis-13................perhaps I just might know what I am talking
about?

Brad

On Aug 23, 9:26*am, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 9:01*am, Evan Ludeman wrote:

It's an Apis 13m. *Anyone with a web browser can figure that out.

You should be able to network your way to experience with the type and
develop a transition plan with an experienced CFIG. *I don't see the
problem.

-Evan / T8

jeez, an Apis-13......................I have 800 hours in an
Apis-13................perhaps I just might know what I am talking
about?

Brad

The Apis line of sailplanes are very easy to fly. No surprises.

The Apis I built I actually flew first time under high-tow.

Crow hops in very light sailplanes can be a handful, since they
accelerate so much faster and want to get airborne much faster than
heavier sailplanes.

Find a CFI-G to work with, get a good cockpit check out and then go
have fun. Who's did you buy?

Brad

On Aug 23, 12:26*pm, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 9:01*am, Evan Ludeman wrote:

It's an Apis 13m. *Anyone with a web browser can figure that out.

You should be able to network your way to experience with the type and
develop a transition plan with an experienced CFIG. *I don't see the
problem.

-Evan / T8

jeez, an Apis-13......................I have 800 hours in an
Apis-13................perhaps I just might know what I am talking
about?

Brad

Exactly. You could be the experience resource. Add a CFIG that has
managed a few pilot transitions and stir.

Proper pre-flight brief and planning, big airport, smooth air, high
tow, proper pattern, *stabilized approach*, great landing, beers and
smiles all around.

Crow hops are what you do if you have concerns about the
controllability of the glider. This is just a simple pilot transition
exercise. My $0.02.

-Evan / T8

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 8:44:06 AM UTC-6, JohnDeRosa wrote:
John C's comments are well said.



A few extra thoughts of my own.



"crow hops" (near heard that term before but I get it) might equate to a "high speed taxi" which is how the general aviation (GA) powered crowd might take a few hops off the runway to test the new hardware. This might work for self powered aircraft but not for a (non-powered) glider.



Think about a glider on a tow rope behind a tow plane. Having the tow plane pull you to take off speed, then you come back down and both you and the tow plane need to come to a halt in unison. The take off is the trickiest thing to master anyway, these hops you suggest would be REALLY tricky.



Of course there is this aspect of the first flight in a single place glider which very few powered GA pilots have ever experienced. Nearly all of them have flown with someone else in a 2 place before soloing it. Even a single place Pitts has a two place equivalent. The point is that gliders are different beasts with special needs. I don't mean to scare, just to get specialized training.



So, anyway, the common course of action is to take a high tow (5,000 ft AGL) early or late in the day, while pretending to execute landing patterns multiple times as you descend. That and a good briefing of the ship beforehand by the POH and an instructor you trust. Especially if this glider of yours is a CG hook and you have never flown one before.



Good luck and stay safe.



- John DeRosa

Guys, I don't think you do "get it".

First, this is never done using a tow plane.
It is not "teaching yourself ground launch" since it's not a 'launch'.
It does not involve enough energy to endanger the pilot or glider.
Once upon a time, this is how everyone learned to fly a glider.
A tow car is used only if a bungee is unavailable.

The glider never gets more than a few inches above the runway nor more than 40 knots. It is done in steps starting with a ground roll just fast enough for aileron control and, if things go well, increasing to just barely liftoff speed. If the glider pilot starts to "lose it" the tow car releases the rope and stops well clear as the glider stops. It is never done in proximity to obstacles the glider could collide with.

It's best done in the early morning with a headwind which keeps the ground speed down.

I did this hundreds of times with an experimental flying wing sailplane as pilots learned its unconventional handling characteristics. No one had a problem, the glider was unscathed and all quickly gained the skills to fly the glider well. If the pilot was really inexperienced, I did a couple of dual "ground slides" and "crow hops" in a 2-seat trainer to get them used to the idea.

Northern European countries like Lithuania still do this with primary gliders. Even young children learn to fly them. Google "LAK 16" videos.

On 8/23/2012 11:07 AM, Bill D wrote:
On Thursday, August 23, 2012 8:44:06 AM UTC-6, JohnDeRosa wrote:
John C's comments are well said.

A few extra thoughts of my own.

"crow hops" (near heard that term before but I get it) might equate to a
"high speed taxi" which is how the general aviation (GA) powered crowd
might take a few hops off the runway to test the new hardware. This
might work for self powered aircraft but not for a (non-powered) glider.

Think about a glider on a tow rope behind a tow plane. Having the tow
plane pull you to take off speed, then you come back down and both you
and the tow plane need to come to a halt in unison. The take off is the
trickiest thing to master anyway, these hops you suggest would be REALLY
tricky.

Of course there is this aspect of the first flight in a single place
glider which very few powered GA pilots have ever experienced. Nearly
all of them have flown with someone else in a 2 place before soloing it.
Even a single place Pitts has a two place equivalent. The point is that
gliders are different beasts with special needs. I don't mean to scare,
just to get specialized training.

So, anyway, the common course of action is to take a high tow (5,000 ft
AGL) early or late in the day, while pretending to execute landing
patterns multiple times as you descend. That and a good briefing of the
ship beforehand by the POH and an instructor you trust. Especially if
this glider of yours is a CG hook and you have never flown one before.

Good luck and stay safe.

- John DeRosa

Guys, I don't think you do "get it".

First, this is never done using a tow plane. It is not "teaching yourself
ground launch" since it's not a 'launch'. It does not involve enough energy
to endanger the pilot or glider. Once upon a time, this is how everyone
learned to fly a glider. A tow car is used only if a bungee is
unavailable.

The glider never gets more than a few inches above the runway nor more than
40 knots. It is done in steps starting with a ground roll just fast enough
for aileron control and, if things go well, increasing to just barely
liftoff speed. If the glider pilot starts to "lose it" the tow car
releases the rope and stops well clear as the glider stops. It is never
done in proximity to obstacles the glider could collide with.

It's best done in the early morning with a headwind which keeps the ground
speed down.

I did this hundreds of times with an experimental flying wing sailplane as
pilots learned its unconventional handling characteristics. No one had a
problem, the glider was unscathed and all quickly gained the skills to fly
the glider well. If the pilot was really inexperienced, I did a couple of
dual "ground slides" and "crow hops" in a 2-seat trainer to get them used
to the idea.

Northern European countries like Lithuania still do this with primary
gliders. Even young children learn to fly them. Google "LAK 16" videos.


It CAN be fun to arrive late to the party. :-)

So now that you've received advice spanning the entire spectrum, how best to
sort it out?

My - utterly free, complete with money-back-guarantee - advice includes:

1) The devil is ALways in the details, and I haven't seen any advice I'd say
is flat out "wrong"...even though plenty of it is conflicting. There
definitely are some useful lessons therein... Proceed accordingly.

2) Yes, you'll be transitioning to a new-to-you single-seat sailplane, but
(based on what you originally wrote) not to a new-to-flight sailplane. I and
every previous responder have done that multiple times; it's one of the
personally intense joys of this grand sport. Point 'A' being, it's not THAT
big a step into the unknown, given many do it safely every year, all around
the globe. Certainly it's not in the same category as acting as a test pilot
to a new-type-sailplane. Point 'B' being there are some sound reasons
supporting the fact most pilots today transitioning to ships of the
performance of your Apis 13M do NOT use the "crow hop" approach. One is that
very few have direct experience with it anymore. (Blame this on the advent of
2-seat trainers post-WW-II. Bill D. - whose aviation [power &
glider]/instructor experience I seriously respect - is an exception, and, note
his referenced "crow hop" experience had both more direct availability of
people with similar experience [because it was decades ago], and, involved
test-flying a new, non-standard/flying wing design. Very prudent
decision/approach under those circumstances, IMHO. Why would you want to
involve yourself with others equally new to what *they're* doing [i.e. "crow
hopping"] as you will be to what *you're* proposing doing? Knee jerk answers
will be downgraded.) Meanwhile John C. touched upon a 2nd reason most
transitions as you've asked about are TODAY arguably most safely done by high
aero tow...i.e. rapidly getting as far away from big, hard things you can hit,
using a tow method with which you (and others) are thoroughly familiar with is
prudent indeed.

3) Brad (Hill - builder/pilot of an Apis 13 w. 800 hours on it & a prior
responder in this thread) apparently used John C.'s recommended approach to
his first flight in his Apis. He alluded to why. Most Definitely pick his
brains before you make your transition flight. Be sure to ask not only "what"
but "why?"

4) If you haven't already, be sure and have a discussion about "PIO" with your
instructor(s) regardless of which approach you pursue.

Have fun! (Just to be anal, I'll note that you won't have much fun if you
crunch something, so there's no need for me to advise, "Be safe!")

Bob W.

On Aug 23, 10:37*am, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 9:26*am, Brad wrote:

On Aug 23, 9:01*am, Evan Ludeman wrote:

It's an Apis 13m. *Anyone with a web browser can figure that out.

You should be able to network your way to experience with the type and
develop a transition plan with an experienced CFIG. *I don't see the
problem.

-Evan / T8

jeez, an Apis-13......................I have 800 hours in an
Apis-13................perhaps I just might know what I am talking
about?

Brad

The Apis line of sailplanes are very easy to fly. No surprises.

The Apis I built I actually flew first time under high-tow.

Crow hops in very light sailplanes can be a handful, since they
accelerate so much faster and want to get airborne much faster than
heavier sailplanes.

Find a CFI-G to work with, get a good cockpit check out and then go
have fun. Who's did you buy?

Brad

Have one flight in an Apis 13. Very nice sailplane with an astonishing
roll rate!

Would take a high tow to get use to the sailplane.

Familiarize yourself with the proper landing and take off flaperon
positions, and you should have no problems.

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:44:22 PM UTC-6, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 8/23/2012 11:07 AM, Bill D wrote:

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 8:44:06 AM UTC-6, JohnDeRosa wrote:

John C's comments are well said.



A few extra thoughts of my own.



"crow hops" (near heard that term before but I get it) might equate to a

"high speed taxi" which is how the general aviation (GA) powered crowd

might take a few hops off the runway to test the new hardware. This

might work for self powered aircraft but not for a (non-powered) glider.