2008 Hawk Display Aircraft - 6592-W.jpg (1/1)

"Maple1" wrote in message
...

[You're] Joking right?

Not at all, I have thought for year that the Snowturds were an expensive way
to turn fuel into noise.

They turned my buddy, Bob Drake, into worm food.

I remain unconvinced that they serve any military purpose.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message
...
"Maple1" wrote in message
...

[You're] Joking right?

Not at all, I have thought for year that the Snowturds were an expensive way
to turn fuel into noise.

They turned my buddy, Bob Drake, into worm food.

I remain unconvinced that they serve any military purpose.

Excuse me, brain fade effects. Bob was killed formation flying in a CC-130.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0329-0&lang=en
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0329-1&lang=en
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

"Neil Hoskins" wrote in message
...

It's a tricky one. Personally I never quite forgave the Red Arrows for
switching from the Gnat, as I found it a far more attractive aeroplane
than the Hawk.

I'm with you on that, Neil, although I do not dislike the Hawk. From my B&W
days here's a snap I took back around the mid-1960's at the Elstree Air
Show.

Showing my vintage I s'pose, but my favourite display team were the
111 Squadron "Black Arrows". The attached shows them on the way up in one of
their 22 a/c loops.
~~
Dingo ;~)

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message
...
"Maple1" wrote in message
...

[You're] Joking right?

Not at all, I have thought for year that the Snowturds were an expensive
way to turn fuel into noise.

They turned my buddy, Bob Drake, into worm food.

I remain unconvinced that they serve any military purpose.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

They MAY encourage recruitment for the military. That is debatable. What is
not debatable that they are a symbol for the military and for Canada in
general. Canada and Canadians need this. What is so hard to understand about
that?

Nick

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message

(Geez, Nick, have you ever been paid to wear a uniform, or are you a
wannabe?)

No, I'm not a wannabe. I'm a Political Scientist who specializes in
strategic studies and international relations. I've trained to become a
pilot but due to health reasons am not a pilot. I still love
aircraft/aviation/aerospace and photography in genral and I know the
relevance of national symbols and having good will ambassadors such as the
Snowbirds.

Insults and half baked theories do not cut it. Clean it up or don't bother
replying.

Nick

"Canuck" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message
...
"Maple1" wrote in message
...

[You're] Joking right?

Not at all, I have thought for year that the Snowturds were an expensive
way to turn fuel into noise.

They turned my buddy, Bob Drake, into worm food.

I remain unconvinced that they serve any military purpose.

They MAY encourage recruitment for the military. That is debatable. What is
not debatable that they are a symbol for the military and for Canada in
general. Canada and Canadians need this. What is so hard to understand about
that?

How does it relate to force effectiveness? Anything that does not contribute
to the mission of the Forces of protect the interests of the Canadian state,
and I can find no way that the Snowbirds contribute to the mission, is
non-essential. Any non-essential activity that costs money should be cut.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

"Canuck" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message

(Geez, Nick, have you ever been paid to wear a uniform, or are you a
wannabe?)

No, I'm not a wannabe. I'm a Political Scientist who specializes in
strategic studies and international relations. I've trained to become a
pilot but due to health reasons am not a pilot. I still love
aircraft/aviation/aerospace and photography in genral and I know the
relevance of national symbols and having good will ambassadors such as the
Snowbirds.

Insults and half baked theories do not cut it. Clean it up or don't bother
replying.

You have just confessed that you are, at least, a "wanted-to-be." From your
remark about "the relevance of national symbols and having good will
ambassadors," I take it that you cannot quantify the benefit.

I am a retired artillery officer with 27 years service, mostly in AD units,
and a degree in history. I served as a staff wallah in NDHQ and have an
understanding of how it works. If we are using Tutors rather than Hawks, then
you can be fairly certain that someone working for the Chief of the Air Staff
has done the sums and figured out that retaining the Tutor is cheaper. They
certainly know -- to the dollar -- how much more money they would have to work
with if it were not politically ill-viewed to dump the Snowbirds. Because of
the political sensitivity surrounding the Snowbirds, they get used as a poison
pill every time someone threatens to cut CAS's budget.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message

They MAY encourage recruitment for the military. That is debatable. What
is not debatable that they are a symbol for the military and for Canada
in general. Canada and Canadians need this. What is so hard to understand
about that?

How does it relate to force effectiveness? Anything that does not
contribute to the mission of the Forces of protect the interests of the
Canadian state, and I can find no way that the Snowbirds contribute to the
mission, is non-essential. Any non-essential activity that costs money
should be cut.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

In whose opinion??? The Snowbirds are not non-essential. I repeat: they are
a symbol of Canada and act as good will ambassadors for our country. They
enhance Canadian unity. How is this non-essential?

Nick

"Canuck" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message

They MAY encourage recruitment for the military. That is debatable. What
is not debatable that they are a symbol for the military and for Canada in
general. Canada and Canadians need this. What is so hard to understand
about that?

How does it relate to force effectiveness? Anything that does not
contribute to the mission of the Forces of protect the interests of the
Canadian state, and I can find no way that the Snowbirds contribute to the
mission, is non-essential. Any non-essential activity that costs money
should be cut.

In whose opinion??? The Snowbirds are not non-essential. I repeat: they are
a symbol of Canada and act as good will ambassadors for our country. They
enhance Canadian unity. How is this non-essential?

Because they are part of the Canadian Forces, and the symbolism and goodwill
has no direct connection, nor can one quantify a contribution, to the
generation of forces that can, either through action or their existence,
"defend Canada and Canadian interests and values while contributing to
international peace and security," the role of the CF laid down in the plans
at http://www.cds.forces.gc.ca/pubs/strategic_e.asp. The notion that the
Snowbirds "enhance Canadian unity" is highly debatable, if not downright
preposterous. The aircraft are pretty and their pilots are talented, but the
money thrown at them could fund hundreds of billets for people in the arms and
technical trades, and those are what we need in the field. The Snowbirds fall
on the circus side of the "bread and circuses" balance sheet. I am reminded of
the sign on the Armaments Section of 434 "Bluenose" Squadron, my battery's
neighbours in Chatham: "Pilots do it better but without armament it wouldn't
be of any military significance."
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message
...
"Canuck" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Chaplin" wrote in message

They MAY encourage recruitment for the military. That is debatable.
What is not debatable that they are a symbol for the military and for
Canada in general. Canada and Canadians need this. What is so hard to
understand about that?

How does it relate to force effectiveness? Anything that does not
contribute to the mission of the Forces of protect the interests of the
Canadian state, and I can find no way that the Snowbirds contribute to
the mission, is non-essential. Any non-essential activity that costs
money should be cut.

In whose opinion??? The Snowbirds are not non-essential. I repeat: they
are a symbol of Canada and act as good will ambassadors for our country.
They enhance Canadian unity. How is this non-essential?

Because they are part of the Canadian Forces, and the symbolism and
goodwill has no direct connection, nor can one quantify a contribution, to
the generation of forces that can, either through action or their
existence, "defend Canada and Canadian interests and values while
contributing to international peace and security," the role of the CF laid
down in the plans at http://www.cds.forces.gc.ca/pubs/strategic_e.asp. The
notion that the Snowbirds "enhance Canadian unity" is highly debatable, if
not downright preposterous. The aircraft are pretty and their pilots are
talented, but the money thrown at them could fund hundreds of billets for
people in the arms and technical trades, and those are what we need in the
field. The Snowbirds fall on the circus side of the "bread and circuses"
balance sheet. I am reminded of the sign on the Armaments Section of 434
"Bluenose" Squadron, my battery's neighbours in Chatham: "Pilots do it
better but without armament it wouldn't be of any military significance."
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

So.... the Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, Red Arrows, ad infinitum should just
pack it in?

Nick