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IFR use of handheld GPS
I've seen other discussions get off topic and go on about handheld GPS
use under IFR. And people get all worked up about it. I know there is a lot of history on this newsgroup, but I haven't followed most of it (so don't lynch me, please). It seems that a lot of pilots believe a handheld GPS shouldn't be used while IFR. And a lot more believe that it can't be the "primary" navigation method. Sometimes that makes sense, but other times it doesn't (to me). So here are a few questions I have that work up to GPS: 1) Can you use celestial navigation while IFR? And does your sextant have to be "approved" in some way? 2) Can you use dead reckoning for IFR navigation? If so, can you use your wrist watch as your "primary" timer? Or does it have to be an "installed" clock? And to do dead reckoning calculations, can you use a drugstore-bought calculator? An abacus? Or how about a handy "dead reckoning computer" that calculates ground speed and track? I can understand that a handheld GPS is not supposed to be used as a substitute for VOR or DME or ADF (say for navigating along airways or for shooting instrument approaches). But can you not use one for flying off-airway routes without playing tricks (like pretending to double-check position with VOR/DME or asking ATC for a vector and then ignoring the heading they issue)? |
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IFR use of handheld GPS
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#3
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IFR use of handheld GPS
asking ATC for a vector and then
ignoring the heading they issue)? If it looks like a troll, walks like a troll, quacks like a troll, it must be a troll. Thanks. Maybe speling and grammar like a troll, but walking and quacking? I'm serious, though. I have heard several pilots tell ATC that they have a handheld GPS and then ask for a vector. What's the point? If you're going to ask for a vector why add the bit about the GPS? I can only assume that they intend on flying the course from the handheld, but ask for a vector because they've heard that its "legal" if you do it that way. On the other hand, I've had a controller ask me if I had a handheld because he wanted me to fly direct to a VOR well outside reception range. I didn't have one with me on that flight, so instead he gave me a vector (it was a slow night). Peter |
#5
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IFR use of handheld GPS
Here's my layman's understanding of this. I hope someone will jump
in and correct me if I've got something wrong, If you're IFR en-route, ATC has three ways of directing you:: a) via an airway; b) direct; c) vectors; ATC needs to have you on radar to issue (b) or (c). You should only accept a direct clearance if you're confident you can navigate direct. It doesn't matter what method you plan to use to navigate direct -- it can be dead reckoning, celestial navigation, visual (if you're VMC), VOR, hand-held GPS, panel-mount GPS, etc. If you're not confident you can navigate direct, then you should refuse the direct clearance. ATC already has you on radar, so it's typically no big deal for them to issue a radar vector instead. What happens if you've accepted a direct clearance, and your hand-held GPS's battereis die? It's just the same as any other reason for being unable to navigate direct (clouds cover the stars, you can no longer see your destination, your ham sandwich falls to the floor...). You inform ATC, eg: "Cessna 12345 is no longer able to navigate direct xyz. Request radar vectors." (Remember, they've already got you on radar to issue the direct clearance.) So, it's OK to accept a direct clearance, even if you're /U, as long as you're confident you can do the navigation. It's also good practice to always cross-check your navigation using some independent means. Once again, if any of this is wrong, stupid, or illegal, please correct me. I'm here to learn! Cheers, Tim. On 2 May 2006 21:23:33 -0700, wrote: I've seen other discussions get off topic and go on about handheld GPS use under IFR. And people get all worked up about it. I know there is a lot of history on this newsgroup, but I haven't followed most of it (so don't lynch me, please). It seems that a lot of pilots believe a handheld GPS shouldn't be used while IFR. And a lot more believe that it can't be the "primary" navigation method. Sometimes that makes sense, but other times it doesn't (to me). So here are a few questions I have that work up to GPS: 1) Can you use celestial navigation while IFR? And does your sextant have to be "approved" in some way? 2) Can you use dead reckoning for IFR navigation? If so, can you use your wrist watch as your "primary" timer? Or does it have to be an "installed" clock? And to do dead reckoning calculations, can you use a drugstore-bought calculator? An abacus? Or how about a handy "dead reckoning computer" that calculates ground speed and track? I can understand that a handheld GPS is not supposed to be used as a substitute for VOR or DME or ADF (say for navigating along airways or for shooting instrument approaches). But can you not use one for flying off-airway routes without playing tricks (like pretending to double-check position with VOR/DME or asking ATC for a vector and then ignoring the heading they issue)? |
#6
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IFR use of handheld GPS
On Saturday, I got an IFR clearance "KROC direct GEE direct KAGC", which
as soon as I got airborne was ammened to "direct KAGC". I was /A and I'd filed along airways, but they must have known I had a handheld on board and it was CAVU because I couldn't have flown that in IMC with the equipment installed on the plane. What does CAVU have to do with it? -- Thanks, John Clonts Temple, Texas N7NZ |
#7
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IFR use of handheld GPS
In a previous article, "John Clonts" said:
On Saturday, I got an IFR clearance "KROC direct GEE direct KAGC", which as soon as I got airborne was ammened to "direct KAGC". I was /A and I'd filed along airways, but they must have known I had a handheld on board and it was CAVU because I couldn't have flown that in IMC with the equipment installed on the plane. What does CAVU have to do with it? If the handheld had failed, I could have navigated by map reading. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ My hate/hate relationship with XML is, predictably, on 'hate' at the moment. -- Matt S Trout |
#8
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IFR use of handheld GPS
If the handheld had failed, I could have navigated by map reading.
Since direct can only be given under radar control (IFR GPS or otherwise) if you lost your handheld you could have just asked for vectors. I used to note "VFR GPS on board" on my IFR flight plan. I no longer need to, ATC seems to assume everyone can take direct now. The /G just lets them know to offer you a GPS approach. -Robert |
#9
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IFR use of handheld GPS
Tim,
All of that sounds very reasonable to me. But so many people think that they can't navigate direct without approved panel mount GPSs that I thought there might be some truth in it. So if a controller asks if I can navigate direct to some intersection (while under IFR) I can say yes and use my handheld and that's okay? I suppose it'll all work out, but I wasn't sure how to answer that question a month or so ago when I was asked. So I said "we can wing it" and his response was, "well I better give you a vector" and then I went and "augmented" his vector with my handheld. I'm sure the controller would have preferred that I just say yes and do it. It would have been easier for him. Peter Tim Auckland wrote: Here's my layman's understanding of this. I hope someone will jump in and correct me if I've got something wrong, If you're IFR en-route, ATC has three ways of directing you:: a) via an airway; b) direct; c) vectors; ATC needs to have you on radar to issue (b) or (c). You should only accept a direct clearance if you're confident you can navigate direct. It doesn't matter what method you plan to use to navigate direct -- it can be dead reckoning, celestial navigation, visual (if you're VMC), VOR, hand-held GPS, panel-mount GPS, etc. If you're not confident you can navigate direct, then you should refuse the direct clearance. ATC already has you on radar, so it's typically no big deal for them to issue a radar vector instead. What happens if you've accepted a direct clearance, and your hand-held GPS's battereis die? It's just the same as any other reason for being unable to navigate direct (clouds cover the stars, you can no longer see your destination, your ham sandwich falls to the floor...). You inform ATC, eg: "Cessna 12345 is no longer able to navigate direct xyz. Request radar vectors." (Remember, they've already got you on radar to issue the direct clearance.) So, it's OK to accept a direct clearance, even if you're /U, as long as you're confident you can do the navigation. It's also good practice to always cross-check your navigation using some independent means. Once again, if any of this is wrong, stupid, or illegal, please correct me. I'm here to learn! Cheers, Tim. |
#10
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IFR use of handheld GPS
In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" said:
If the handheld had failed, I could have navigated by map reading. Since direct can only be given under radar control (IFR GPS or otherwise) if you lost your handheld you could have just asked for vectors. I used to note "VFR GPS on board" on my IFR flight plan. I no Yeah, but in a lost comm situation, you'd either have to map read your way to the destination or aim off to intercept your original airways course or quickly plot a new airways course. I could do the all of the above in CAVU, but in IMC I'd probably want to do the middle one. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ "The first rule of Usenet Cabal is: you do not talk about Usenet Cabal." |
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