No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:30:12 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or
question it if you feel it is unsafe

What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading.

That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot has no
way of knowing without direct knowledge. However, I have been told that
any tower-issued pre-takeoff headings (which really are Departure Control
generated) should comply with either an applicable ODP, or established
radar diverse vector area criteria.

Unfortunately, there have been plenty of holes in that system, so it
behooves the pilot to be alert if a tower-issued pre-takeoff heading is at
variance with a published ODP.






Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Greg Esres wrote:
you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or
question it if you feel it is unsafe

What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading.

No, it's a vector.

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".

Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.

So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?

Since you were to be given radar vectors, and tower normally gives that
first vector (or fly runway heading) you should have asked for the vector
when cleared for takeoff. However, doing so was to help them (CD/Tower) fix
their goof as one of them dropped the ball.

Not your goof; but then the PIC is always the one that runs into the
mountain - not "Them"...

No Spam

Well, only a reading of the ATC tapes would tell you whether the departure
a issue was in your clearance. If it was not, and it is the "100% drill"
to get that departure, you should have sought clarification because you
sensed a crack that you were possibly going to fall through.

As to your distinction between SIDs and DPs, there isn't any in this
country, at least not until they sign out a policy reinstating SIDs.
There are Obstacle DPs and there are ATC DPs. Of course, some of the
charts are old so they state "SID" on them.

No one said it would be easy. ;-)

Roy Smith wrote:

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".

Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.

So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?

Check the latest AIM...SIDs are back.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
Well, only a reading of the ATC tapes would tell you whether the departure
a issue was in your clearance. If it was not, and it is the "100% drill"
to get that departure, you should have sought clarification because you
sensed a crack that you were possibly going to fall through.

As to your distinction between SIDs and DPs, there isn't any in this
country, at least not until they sign out a policy reinstating SIDs.
There are Obstacle DPs and there are ATC DPs. Of course, some of the
charts are old so they state "SID" on them.

No one said it would be easy. ;-)

Roy Smith wrote:

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".

Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.

So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?

Bob Gardner wrote:

Check the latest AIM...SIDs are back.

Bob Gardner

I believe you. I know they were getting close the last time I heard about it.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".


Unless they made some major changes to the airway structure in the northeast
recently, V1 does not go to HFD from CMK, V3 does.



Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.


Sounds like you were departing RWY 16, what vector did they issue prior to
takeoff?



So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?


Well, somebody goofed. Can't say for sure who it was without knowledge of
standard procedures or hearing the tapes. You say it's unusual to not be
issued the Westchester One departure, but you read the clearance back as
issued and clearance delivery said it was correct. But since the clearance
was "radar vectors Carmel" a heading should have been issued with the
takeoff clearance. Was it? If one was not, and you weren't issued the
departure procedure, you shoul have known something was amiss before taking
the runway.

Originally Posted by Roy Smith

Had a strange thing happen to me today. I filed IFR HPN - HFD (White
Plains NY to Hartford CT). The route part of my clearance came back
"radar vectors Carmel[VOR], V1, Hartford[VOR], Direct".

Usually out of HPN I would expect to get the Westchester-1 departure,
but it wasn't in my clearance, and I when I read back the clearance
without it, I got "readback correct". Seemed a little strange, but I
went with the flow (I should have asked for clarification, I'm not
sure why I didn't). The turn in the SID took us away from our first
fix, so I guess I figured they were just doing us a favor or something
with a shorter routing.

We took off and I started climbing straight out. The HPN-1 has an
almost 180-degree turn almost immediately. The guy I was with asked
me why I wasn't making the turn and I said we weren't on the SID. I
asked tower and they said I should be on the SID.

So, what went wrong? Did I goof? Am I supposed to fly the SID (not a
DP) even though it's not in the clearance? Is it more likely that it
was in the clearance but I just didn't hear it and the controller
didn't notice that it wasn't in the readback?

As I understand, you get climb out instruction from approach unit before departure (if it's not included in the ATC clearance). That climb out instruction can be or cannot be SID. In anyway, you just follow it. I think htere could be some misunderstanding between tower and approach controllers. So if there happen to be something unclear, pilot need to make sure with ATC unit. We never assume anything.