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#61
November 16th 03, 07:50 PM
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John Mullen wrote in message ...
Michael Petukhov wrote: (George William Herbert) wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: [...] The funny side that even time delays would be just fine not to speak that the signal does come from the moon. The later is for radio enthusiasts all over the world. Hm... tell me the tue. this is what you wanted to ambush me on? Right? Little naive boy... So, would you mind explaining from the start for those of us who missed your earlier postings, what makes you think that this was faked at all? This is very big field full of false claims and contra claims. I cannot give you a complete list but in my view there are lots of very strange things in NASA official pictures and particualrly in movies (wrong shadows, untouched dust directly under LM engine, clouds of dust from under rover wheels etc.), strange elements of LM design like inward opening hatch, space and van-allen belts radiation which was largerly ignored etc. On radiation you can start with: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm it has references on valid nasa documents and measuremrnts. As for the pictures there are many sites on internet. Try "moon hoax" you would have tons of that with pictures refernces etc. Both pro and contra, false and true. So be careful you can be mislead. As IMO you have been! http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html John, just a few comments on that site. It is nicely organized. It does include refernces to original materials and it discusses most (not all tought) important NASA problems with that Moon landings. Moreover tt seems author prepared a book to disprove NASA hoax theory, which is on sale. But there is one important problem. He lies, directly and openly. He says: "... However, not the rover! If you watch the clip, you will see dust thrown up by the wheels of the rover. The dust goes up in a perfect parabolic arc and falls back down to the surface. ..." It is the lie. I am sure you have seen this video. If not take it and look very closely. It is exactly opposite to what was actually shown in NASA official videos. Namely clouds of dust from rover wheels stopped by the air exactly like on the earth were shown. Very visible, very clear. BTW the same effects for dust from astranouts foots is also sometimes very clearly visible. Why he lies, John? If so, after that, how we can trust a word from this guy about his on other topics, easily received discussions with NASA experts etc.? No way. "... Again, the Moon isn't the Earth! If this were filmed on the Earth, which has air, the dust would have billowed up around the wheel and floated over the surface. This clearly does not happen in the video clips; the dust goes up and right back down. It's actually a beautiful demonstration of ballistic flight in a vacuum. Had NASA faked this shot, they would have had to have a whole set (which would have been very large) with all the air removed. We don't have this technology today! ..." Exactly. This is the Earth? Michael This is another case of selective vision on the part of the HBs. gives a useful summary of the true explanations of the fallacies mentioned by you above. Of course, as with holocaust deniers and UFO believers, psychological factors are more important than historical or scientific ones in understanding why people hold these beliefs. John 
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#62
November 16th 03, 08:43 PM
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"Brett" wrote in message ... "Keith Willshaw" wrote:. Only 12 launch failures in 300+/- attempts since the mid 1960's? 2% of 300 is 6, Russian rockets have a generally excellent record. The notable exception was the N1 rocket designed for the Soviet moon program. Keith
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#63
November 16th 03, 10:21 PM
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Michael Petukhov wrote:
John Mullen wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: (George William Herbert) wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: [...] The funny side that even time delays would be just fine not to speak that the signal does come from the moon. The later is for radio enthusiasts all over the world. Hm... tell me the tue. this is what you wanted to ambush me on? Right? Little naive boy... So, would you mind explaining from the start for those of us who missed your earlier postings, what makes you think that this was faked at all? This is very big field full of false claims and contra claims. I cannot give you a complete list but in my view there are lots of very strange things in NASA official pictures and particualrly in movies (wrong shadows, untouched dust directly under LM engine, clouds of dust from under rover wheels etc.), strange elements of LM design like inward opening hatch, space and van-allen belts radiation which was largerly ignored etc. On radiation you can start with: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm it has references on valid nasa documents and measuremrnts. As for the pictures there are many sites on internet. Try "moon hoax" you would have tons of that with pictures refernces etc. Both pro and contra, false and true. So be careful you can be mislead. As IMO you have been! http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html John, just a few comments on that site. It is nicely organized. It does include refernces to original materials and it discusses most (not all tought) important NASA problems with that Moon landings. Moreover tt seems author prepared a book to disprove NASA hoax theory, which is on sale. But there is one important problem. He lies, directly and openly. He says: "... However, not the rover! If you watch the clip, you will see dust thrown up by the wheels of the rover. The dust goes up in a perfect parabolic arc and falls back down to the surface. ..." I can't see that Michael. All I can see is the dust going up from the wheels and falling straight back down again, as it would in a vacuum. It is the lie. I am sure you have seen this video. If not take it and look very closely. It is exactly opposite to what was actually shown in NASA official videos. Namely clouds of dust from rover wheels stopped by the air exactly like on the earth were shown. Very visible, very clear. BTW the same effects for dust from astranouts foots is also sometimes very clearly visible. Why he lies, John? If so, after that, how we can trust a word from this guy about his on other topics, easily received discussions with NASA experts etc.? No way. "... Again, the Moon isn't the Earth! If this were filmed on the Earth, which has air, the dust would have billowed up around the wheel and floated over the surface. This clearly does not happen in the video clips; the dust goes up and right back down. It's actually a beautiful demonstration of ballistic flight in a vacuum. Had NASA faked this shot, they would have had to have a whole set (which would have been very large) with all the air removed. We don't have this technology today! ..." Exactly. This is the Earth? I don't think so. Michael This is another case of selective vision on the part of the HBs. Do you have a ref for these clios that you refer to? John gives a useful summary of the true explanations of the fallacies mentioned by you above. Of course, as with holocaust deniers and UFO believers, psychological factors are more important than historical or scientific ones in understanding why people hold these beliefs. John
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#64
November 16th 03, 11:43 PM
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "John Mullen" wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: You could also mention that the Russian boosters are much less likely to blow up. Which would turn out to be inaccurate in the time frame under discussion You may wish to read about what happened to the Russian launch vehicle of choice. Hint it involved a VERY large explosion on the pad. http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/ABSTRACTS/GPN-2002-000188.html http://www.ukra.org.uk/newsletter/volume6issue1/22.html Keith both the american and russian programs have suffered similar disasters. such are the risks of being pioneers.
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#65
November 16th 03, 11:50 PM
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John Mullen wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: (George William Herbert) wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: [...] The funny side that even time delays would be just fine not to speak that the signal does come from the moon. The later is for radio enthusiasts all over the world. Hm... tell me the tue. this is what you wanted to ambush me on? Right? Little naive boy... So, would you mind explaining from the start for those of us who missed your earlier postings, what makes you think that this was faked at all? This is very big field full of false claims and contra claims. I cannot give you a complete list but in my view there are lots of very strange things in NASA official pictures and particualrly in movies (wrong shadows, untouched dust directly under LM engine, clouds of dust from under rover wheels etc.), strange elements of LM design like inward opening hatch, space and van-allen belts radiation which was largerly ignored etc. On radiation you can start with: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm it has references on valid nasa documents and measuremrnts. As for the pictures there are many sites on internet. Try "moon hoax" you would have tons of that with pictures refernces etc. Both pro and contra, false and true. So be careful you can be mislead. As IMO you have been! http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html great site!
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#67
November 17th 03, 10:35 AM
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John Mullen wrote in message ...
Michael Petukhov wrote: John Mullen wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: (George William Herbert) wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: [...] The funny side that even time delays would be just fine not to speak that the signal does come from the moon. The later is for radio enthusiasts all over the world. Hm... tell me the tue. this is what you wanted to ambush me on? Right? Little naive boy... So, would you mind explaining from the start for those of us who missed your earlier postings, what makes you think that this was faked at all? This is very big field full of false claims and contra claims. I cannot give you a complete list but in my view there are lots of very strange things in NASA official pictures and particualrly in movies (wrong shadows, untouched dust directly under LM engine, clouds of dust from under rover wheels etc.), strange elements of LM design like inward opening hatch, space and van-allen belts radiation which was largerly ignored etc. On radiation you can start with: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm it has references on valid nasa documents and measuremrnts. As for the pictures there are many sites on internet. Try "moon hoax" you would have tons of that with pictures refernces etc. Both pro and contra, false and true. So be careful you can be mislead. As IMO you have been! http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html John, just a few comments on that site. It is nicely organized. It does include refernces to original materials and it discusses most (not all tought) important NASA problems with that Moon landings. Moreover tt seems author prepared a book to disprove NASA hoax theory, which is on sale. But there is one important problem. He lies, directly and openly. He says: "... However, not the rover! If you watch the clip, you will see dust thrown up by the wheels of the rover. The dust goes up in a perfect parabolic arc and falls back down to the surface. ..." I can't see that Michael. All I can see is the dust going up from the wheels and falling straight back down again, as it would in a vacuum. What you cannot see? The clouds of dust stopped by the air? In vacuum there would not clouds, The trajectory would be symmetrical ballistic parabola, the horizontal speed of the particles at the end of the trajectory would be the same as it was in beginning. None of this is visible in NASA clip. Apollo 16 video under the title "Astronaut drives Lunar Rover" at: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Hi...ann/videos.htm It is the lie. I am sure you have seen this video. If not take it and look very closely. It is exactly opposite to what was actually shown in NASA official videos. Namely clouds of dust from rover wheels stopped by the air exactly like on the earth were shown. Very visible, very clear. BTW the same effects for dust from astranouts foots is also sometimes very clearly visible. Why he lies, John? If so, after that, how we can trust a word from this guy about his on other topics, easily received discussions with NASA experts etc.? No way. "... Again, the Moon isn't the Earth! If this were filmed on the Earth, which has air, the dust would have billowed up around the wheel and floated over the surface. This clearly does not happen in the video clips; the dust goes up and right back down. It's actually a beautiful demonstration of ballistic flight in a vacuum. Had NASA faked this shot, they would have had to have a whole set (which would have been very large) with all the air removed. We don't have this technology today! ..." Exactly. This is the Earth? I don't think so. Michael This is another case of selective vision on the part of the HBs. Do you have a ref for these clios that you refer to? Sure. I am refering to dust clouds clearly visible in NASA official Apollo 16 video under the title "Astronaut drives Lunar Rover" which can be found at: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Hi...ann/videos.htm Michael John gives a useful summary of the true explanations of the fallacies mentioned by you above. Of course, as with holocaust deniers and UFO believers, psychological factors are more important than historical or scientific ones in understanding why people hold these beliefs. John
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#68
November 17th 03, 10:59 AM
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"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message om... Sure. I am refering to dust clouds clearly visible in NASA official Apollo 16 video under the title "Astronaut drives Lunar Rover" which can be found at: There are no dust clouds in this video. The dust is thrown off the rear wheel and immediately falls back to the ground with no plume of dust hanging suspended as happens when you drive in desert areas on earth. Keith
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#69
November 17th 03, 02:50 PM
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(Michael Petukhov) wrote in message . com...
John Mullen wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: John Mullen wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: (George William Herbert) wrote in message ... Michael Petukhov wrote: [...] The funny side that even time delays would be just fine not to speak that the signal does come from the moon. The later is for radio enthusiasts all over the world. Hm... tell me the tue. this is what you wanted to ambush me on? Right? Little naive boy... So, would you mind explaining from the start for those of us who missed your earlier postings, what makes you think that this was faked at all? This is very big field full of false claims and contra claims. I cannot give you a complete list but in my view there are lots of very strange things in NASA official pictures and particualrly in movies (wrong shadows, untouched dust directly under LM engine, clouds of dust from under rover wheels etc.), strange elements of LM design like inward opening hatch, space and van-allen belts radiation which was largerly ignored etc. On radiation you can start with: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm it has references on valid nasa documents and measuremrnts. As for the pictures there are many sites on internet. Try "moon hoax" you would have tons of that with pictures refernces etc. Both pro and contra, false and true. So be careful you can be mislead. As IMO you have been! http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html John, just a few comments on that site. It is nicely organized. It does include refernces to original materials and it discusses most (not all tought) important NASA problems with that Moon landings. Moreover tt seems author prepared a book to disprove NASA hoax theory, which is on sale. But there is one important problem. He lies, directly and openly. He says: "... However, not the rover! If you watch the clip, you will see dust thrown up by the wheels of the rover. The dust goes up in a perfect parabolic arc and falls back down to the surface. ..." I can't see that Michael. All I can see is the dust going up from the wheels and falling straight back down again, as it would in a vacuum. What you cannot see? The clouds of dust stopped by the air? In vacuum there would not clouds, You don't need vaccums. Lunar Landers make their own clouds, it's MAGIC. The trajectory would be symmetrical ballistic parabola, the horizontal speed of the particles at the end of the trajectory would be the same as it was in beginning. None of this is visible in NASA clip. That is only because NASA wasted 20 years of our national budget collecting Moon ROCKS. They are amatuer photographers, whom the only people on Earth who are paid less are the Russians. What you fail to understand is what we have to keep reminding British retart physicists even more often that we have to remind US retart physicists: The moon is not a vacuum. Vacuum's only exist in Pisa, and it's closely allied partner in low IQ, Paris. Apollo 16 video under the title "Astronaut drives Lunar Rover" at: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Hi...ann/videos.htm It is the lie. I am sure you have seen this video. If not take it and look very closely. It is exactly opposite to what was actually shown in NASA official videos. Namely clouds of dust from rover wheels stopped by the air exactly like on the earth were shown. Very visible, very clear. BTW the same effects for dust from astranouts foots is also sometimes very clearly visible. Why he lies, John? If so, after that, how we can trust a word from this guy about his on other topics, easily received discussions with NASA experts etc.? No way. "... Again, the Moon isn't the Earth! If this were filmed on the Earth, which has air, the dust would have billowed up around the wheel and floated over the surface. This clearly does not happen in the video clips; the dust goes up and right back down. It's actually a beautiful demonstration of ballistic flight in a vacuum. Had NASA faked this shot, they would have had to have a whole set (which would have been very large) with all the air removed. We don't have this technology today! ..." But, the US never claimed to France that we have the technology. Our claim is the same as it's always been: We have the knowledge, we have the power, we have the freedom: hence you commies are toast.
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#70
November 17th 03, 02:58 PM
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message om... Sure. I am refering to dust clouds clearly visible in NASA official Apollo 16 video under the title "Astronaut drives Lunar Rover" which can be found at: There are no dust clouds in this video. The dust is thrown off the rear wheel and immediately falls back to the ground with no plume of dust hanging suspended as happens when you drive in desert areas on earth. Ok Keith your visibility clearly does not allow you to see this air effects in Moon, as well as to all NASA defenders. As for me "clouds" of very fine particles of dust hanging suspended in the air and as well as "clouds" of more heavy particles concetrated in areas where they lost horizontal speed (due to air resitence) and fall down almost vertical, are all pretty visible to me. Let's see maybe others have a bit better visibility, than you have. Michael Keith
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