argh -- flight plan routes

"Peter R." wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

Look up the routes in the back of the AFD.

In the Northeast US, filing the preferred route does not always guarantee a
cleared as filed

No, it doesn't. The published routes are a good guess, though. The worst
that happens if you file the "wrong" route and you get a full route
clearance.

This is due to a lack of understanding of how ATC routing works, and
also because very few instructors understand it themselves. Check the
preferred routes in the back of the AF/D. If none exists, check the
STAR's for the destination and enroute airport. You can't go blasting
through a class B airspace, even under IFR. Most flights are radar
vectored in these airspaces, and ATC wants you to arrive at clearly
defined fixes.


wrote in news:1112125114.549042.263410
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:


ventmode
I am an inexperienced instrument pilot and I just don't understand why
we file routes on our flight plans at all!

I never get what I filed, anyway, and it's not uncommon that the route
I actually get shares not a single waypoint with what I filed.

It is an interesting game to try to guess what they want you to do,
file that, and see if I get it back, but I so seldom win at it. I even
use the trick of, yes, filing what they gave me last time, but no,
even
that is not sure-fire.

It's not that I'm complaining, but, okay, I'm complaining a bit.

- is the route box in the flight plan form just an anachronism from
a more flexible time in history
- why shouldn't I just file DIRECT?
- The equipment I have access to is /A. If I did file direct, will
the routing I get be /A friendly? This is perhaps tricky and illegal,
because I know that I couldn't actually fly the direct route I asked
for. (well, that's a total side discussion, I know, what I can do with
radar vectors and a VFR GPS)

This is all only a minor annoyance, except for when I am sitting in
the
runup area with a newly picked up clearance, trying to figure out
where
those fixes are while the hobbs meter is running.

/ventmode

-- dave j
-- jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

In the northeast there are 2 sets of "preferred routes".

thera are TEC routes, and there are preferred routes.

Which one you get will often depend on your altitude.



On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:23:40 -0500, "Peter R."
wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

Look up the routes in the back of the AFD.

In the Northeast US, filing the preferred route does not always guarantee a
cleared as filed, for the "real" preferred routes are not the published
routes.

Flying into Boston from the west at a low altitude is one example of a
cleared route that differs from the A/FD's published routes.

On 29 Mar 2005 14:01:07 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:

As you gain experience in a given area of the country, you will
eventually learn what they like to do in that particular part of the
country. Then you can get to a point where you can guess what's coming
maybe three times out of four. That's it. Your chances of getting
cleared as filed in busy airspace you're unfamiliar with are
effectively zero. The only time you can get what you want, you can
also get direct. The stuff in the A&FD is worthless.


there are routes in certain areas in the northeast that are just about
guaranteed to be what the AFD publishes, and in busy airspace (which
of course is where the TEC routes are)

In article ,
wrote:

In the northeast there are 2 sets of "preferred routes".

thera are TEC routes, and there are preferred routes.

Which one you get will often depend on your altitude.

This is one of the more brain-dead things the FAA does. There may be good
reasons why, from an internal FAA point of view, there are two sets of
routes. From a user perspective, however, it's absurd that they're not
folded into a single table.

As an inexperienced not-yet instrument pilot (hopefully that comes this
weekend), I have been pretty lucky using the preferred routes in the A&FD.
On cross countries during training or even filing to distant locations for
practice, I have heard "cleared as filed" more often than not. Where there
are no preferred routes, I choose airways that are clear of major traffic.
Its worked so far, knock on wood. True, it can be a taxing mental exercise,
but I find the gamble sort of fun.

As a aside, why pick up your clearance with the hobbs running? Given that
you may not get your filed route and thus may need to study the charts
and/or program the new fight plan into the GPS, pick up your clearance while
still on the ramp and with the engine off. That gives you time to clear
your mind, do last minute tasks and be prepared for flight before starting
to siphon your wallet. I preflight the plane and then pick up the clearance
on my hand-held. Once the route is confirmed, I pick up the highlighter and
start marking the charts. When I start the plane, I am ready to fly.

Bob

wrote in message
oups.com...

ventmode
I am an inexperienced instrument pilot and I just don't understand why
we file routes on our flight plans at all!

I never get what I filed, anyway, and it's not uncommon that the route
I actually get shares not a single waypoint with what I filed.

It is an interesting game to try to guess what they want you to do,
file that, and see if I get it back, but I so seldom win at it. I even
use the trick of, yes, filing what they gave me last time, but no, even
that is not sure-fire.

It's not that I'm complaining, but, okay, I'm complaining a bit.

- is the route box in the flight plan form just an anachronism from
a more flexible time in history
- why shouldn't I just file DIRECT?
- The equipment I have access to is /A. If I did file direct, will
the routing I get be /A friendly? This is perhaps tricky and illegal,
because I know that I couldn't actually fly the direct route I asked
for. (well, that's a total side discussion, I know, what I can do with
radar vectors and a VFR GPS)

This is all only a minor annoyance, except for when I am sitting in the
runup area with a newly picked up clearance, trying to figure out where
those fixes are while the hobbs meter is running.

/ventmode

-- dave j
-- jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

Not really. The two sets of "preferred" routes (like Peter pointed out) are
due to altitude restrictions dictated by the traffic flow from the
KJFK/KLGA/KEWR trio. This is further driven by the runways in use. With the
possible departure/arrival combinations from the three airports, it would be
very hard to guess the preferred route of the moment. To put that into a
table would be confusing.

That being said, the routes from Long Island are pretty predictable going
west/southwest. Pretty much follows the preferred routes on the FAA
database.

Marco Leon

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

This is one of the more brain-dead things the FAA does. There may be good
reasons why, from an internal FAA point of view, there are two sets of
routes. From a user perspective, however, it's absurd that they're not
folded into a single table.



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I wrote:
This is one of the more brain-dead things the FAA does. There may be good
reasons why, from an internal FAA point of view, there are two sets of
routes. From a user perspective, however, it's absurd that they're not
folded into a single table.

Marco Leon mmleon(at)yahoo.com wrote:
Not really.

Yes, really. The AFD contains two sections with preferred routes.
One is called something like "Low-level preferred routes", the other
is called "TEC routes". They both contain routes from origin to
destination, with certain altitude, speed, and time restrictions.
From my point of view as a user, it's just extra work to have to flip
back and forth between two different sections to find what I'm looking
for.

The two sets of "preferred" routes (like Peter pointed out) are
due to altitude restrictions dictated by the traffic flow from the
KJFK/KLGA/KEWR trio.

No, they're due to the fact that some routes go through ARTCC
airspace, and some don't. This may be important to the FAA, but from
my point of view as a user, I couldn't care less whether I ever get
handed off to somebody with "center" in their name.

This is further driven by the runways in use. With the possible
departure/arrival combinations from the three airports, it would be
very hard to guess the preferred route of the moment.

There's no doubt that the routes in use change to adapt to weather,
traffic patterns, facility outages, etc, but that's not what I'm
talking about. All I'm saying is that if they're going to publish a
bunch of routes, they should just put them all in a single place so
they're easier to find. Splitting the information into two distinct
AFD sections is just plain stupid.

Doesn't always work.
You can pick up your clearance but be held for release.
Happened to me this weekend at when trying to depart KMWO (Middletown OH).
We received our clearance prior to startup, were told to call back for
release when ready to depart, and taxied to the departure end of the
runway. We called back for release from Rwy 05 and were advised that
there was an aircraft ten miles out on the approach to Rwy 23 to the
airport. Winds were 060 at 7kts. After the inbound aircraft went missed,
we called for release and were advised that there was a second aircraft
now inbound on the 23 approach.
We could have requested a VFR departure and gotten out immediately, but
instead elected to wait for the first aircraft to arrive. Little did we
know ATC would slip another aircraft inbound while we waited. The worst
part of this was there was a VFR aircraft behind us who had to wait
because there was not enough room on the taxiway to go around us.

RAM wrote:
As a aside, why pick up your clearance with the hobbs running? Given that
you may not get your filed route and thus may need to study the charts
and/or program the new fight plan into the GPS, pick up your clearance while
still on the ramp and with the engine off. That gives you time to clear
your mind, do last minute tasks and be prepared for flight before starting
to siphon your wallet. I preflight the plane and then pick up the clearance
on my hand-held. Once the route is confirmed, I pick up the highlighter and
start marking the charts. When I start the plane, I am ready to fly.

jsmith wrote:
The worst part of this was there was a VFR aircraft behind us who
had to wait because there was not enough room on the taxiway to go
around us.

If you didn't want to depart VFR, couldn't you have at least taxied
down the runway and pulled off on the first turnoff to let the VFR guy
behind you get out?