compass turns with high mounted compass (Cessna 152)

Unrelated response to your specific question.... do they have a dual
com/nav stack in the 152? I ask, because all the 152 trainers I've seen
at
my FBO only have one com and one nav. I would think that adding another
stack would only serve to further reduce the marginally okay max load capy
of the 152?

Hi Cecil - the plane is 65610 with West Valley out of Palo Alto (
http://www.wvfc.org/craft/65610.html ), and it does have dual nav/com with
glideslope and an inop ADF. All this adds about 80 or so pounds to the
empty weight. The max load is decreased, but the performance is more than
compensated for by the sparrowhawk conversion. I'm a fair bit lighter than
the FAA "standard passenger" - so I can barely fly with my instructor and
full fuel.

After doing my PP in 152's, I had originally planned on doing my instrument
in 172SPs in order to become proficient with the autopilot and GPS
approaches - which I figure I'll be much more likely to use in 'real life'
IFR flight. However, I'm a grad student with a pretty tight budget - and
there's a $50/hour wet difference between the 152 and 172SPs. I told my
instructor that I wanted to spend at least some of my instrument training in
the cheaper 152, and his response was basically "why not do all of it in the
152, after you finish the checkride it'll only take a couple lessons for you
to learn the GPS and autopilot, and this will save you thousands of
dollars." Sound's good to me!

- Ray

On 2005-04-01, wrote:
Some examiners don't care.

Others will just tell you your compass heading whenever you ask for
it.

I always thought that was funny, since the hardest thing for me about
the mag compass is reading it.

When I practiced compass turns I did it by looking at the mag compass,
even though I could see outside. The skill I was trying to learn wasn't
attitude instrument flying at that point.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

I still think you are wasting your time and that of your students. Compass
turns are not practical...that's why they haven't been in the PTS for a long
time; it's not just a change in the most recent PTS. Turn coordinator
calibration is a non-issue, except for CFII checkrides. So you aim for 270
and end up with 250...is this life-threatening? Easy to fix, and absolutely
no one will notice.

Anyone who cannot pick two headings off of the heading indicator, count the
number of ten-degree/45-degree tick marks between them, and divide by three
may not be intellectually suited to aviation.

Bob



"Barry" wrote in message ...
Compass turns are not required by the PTS. In my opinion, teaching and
practicing compass turns is a complete waste of time that could be more
profitably spent on more practical maneuvers. OTOH, timed turns make
perfectly good sense....

Compare that with simply rolling into a standard rate turn (still hard to
maintain in turbulence) and watching the seconds tick by. BTW, nobody
expects you to roll out anywhere close to a desired heading when
conditions are really bad.

Yes, compass turns are not in the new PTS. However, I think that it's
still a skill worth learning. I prefer (and teach) using timing for small
turns (heading change 60 degrees or less), and the compass for larger
turns. All you really need to remember is that if the desired heading is
north, you roll out early, and if the desired heading is south, you go
past it before rolling out. This gets you close, and then you used a
small timed turn to get closer. I really think this is easier than trying
to figure out the time required for say, a right turn from 320 to 180.
There's also the effect of the turn coordinator calibration.

But I wouldn't insist on compass turns if the pilot makes acceptable timed
turns.

I couldn't agree more with you and Bob. I can turn a lot more accurately
with a stop watch than a mag compass. But his question wasn't about
the merits of each .. it was about using the compass when it's outside
the viewing area of the hood. That would also be a factor when setting
the DG prior to starting an approach. To which I still say .. have the
CFI/safety pilot read it for you.


wrote in message
...
I'm with Gardner on this one.

compass turns are a complete waste of time and money.

Use a clock. Forget lead, lag, accelerate north, decelerate south,
and all the rest of the anal aviation gobbledygook..





On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:28:32 GMT, "OtisWinslow"
wrote:

Ask the CFI to tell you when you hit the compass heading
you want to start your rollout on. Talk thru your logic for
selecting this heading. (compensating for lead/lag of the
compass)


"Ray" wrote in message
...
I'm just starting out my instrument training in a Cessna 152 that has a
compass mounted at the top of the windshield. Here's a sample picture
for
those who have never seen it,
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/643201/M

Can anyone tell me if it's still possible to do compass turns under the
hood
with this kind of setup? I've seen a lot of planes with high mounted
compasses, so I imagine this isn't a new question.

- Ray

Well, if you do timed turns and forget all the other nonsense, you
only need to know the heading when the aircraft is straight and level.

Looking at a bouncing compass during a turn in the clouds and burning
up a bunch of brain cycles at the same time figuring leads and lags
and accelerations and decelerations with your attention diverted from
the instrument panel, is asking for trouble, if you ask me. When your
eyes return to the panel, you will probably find the altitude
decreasing rapidly and your airseed increasing rapidly, and then you
get to do partial panel unusual attitude recovery for real. By this
time ATC is probably on your case about your altitude, and you are
wishing you were somewhere else.

How about instead (1) look at the compass and note your heading (2)
use a compass rose (10 seconds per number on the rose) to calculate
the time for your desired turn (4) concentrate on a nice smooth,
level turn (5) check your heading after the rollout and (6) tidy up
the error, if any.

Not nearly as gee-whiz as all the compass gobbledygook, but a whole
lot safer, if you ask me.





On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:06:30 -0600, Ben Jackson wrote:

On 2005-04-01, wrote:
Some examiners don't care.

Others will just tell you your compass heading whenever you ask for
it.

I always thought that was funny, since the hardest thing for me about
the mag compass is reading it.

When I practiced compass turns I did it by looking at the mag compass,
even though I could see outside. The skill I was trying to learn wasn't
attitude instrument flying at that point.

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:56:39 -0800, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

I still think you are wasting your time and that of your students. Compass
turns are not practical...that's why they haven't been in the PTS for a long
time; it's not just a change in the most recent PTS. Turn coordinator
calibration is a non-issue, except for CFII checkrides. So you aim for 270
and end up with 250...is this life-threatening? Easy to fix, and absolutely
no one will notice.

Anyone who cannot pick two headings off of the heading indicator, count the
number of ten-degree/45-degree tick marks between them, and divide by three
may not be intellectually suited to aviation.

Bob



Amen. But why do any dividing at all? Each number on a compass rose
is 10 seconds. Count the numbers between your present heading and
the desired heading (just go "ten,twenty, thirty...") and interpolate
the overage/underage, and you'll be very close when you roll out,
with probably one more little turn to tidy up.

But you are absolutely right about the compass turn stuff. It's damn
near as ridiculous as parallel, teardrop and direct entries. Or
"reverse sensing". But let's not go there...



"Barry" wrote in message ...
Compass turns are not required by the PTS. In my opinion, teaching and
practicing compass turns is a complete waste of time that could be more
profitably spent on more practical maneuvers. OTOH, timed turns make
perfectly good sense....

Compare that with simply rolling into a standard rate turn (still hard to
maintain in turbulence) and watching the seconds tick by. BTW, nobody
expects you to roll out anywhere close to a desired heading when
conditions are really bad.

Yes, compass turns are not in the new PTS. However, I think that it's
still a skill worth learning. I prefer (and teach) using timing for small
turns (heading change 60 degrees or less), and the compass for larger
turns. All you really need to remember is that if the desired heading is
north, you roll out early, and if the desired heading is south, you go
past it before rolling out. This gets you close, and then you used a
small timed turn to get closer. I really think this is easier than trying
to figure out the time required for say, a right turn from 320 to 180.
There's also the effect of the turn coordinator calibration.

But I wouldn't insist on compass turns if the pilot makes acceptable timed
turns.

I agree. Nothing like inserting high workload items such as compass turns
into situations where stress has created tunnel vision.

Bob

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:56:39 -0800, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

I still think you are wasting your time and that of your students. Compass
turns are not practical...that's why they haven't been in the PTS for a
long
time; it's not just a change in the most recent PTS. Turn coordinator
calibration is a non-issue, except for CFII checkrides. So you aim for 270
and end up with 250...is this life-threatening? Easy to fix, and
absolutely
no one will notice.

Anyone who cannot pick two headings off of the heading indicator, count
the
number of ten-degree/45-degree tick marks between them, and divide by
three
may not be intellectually suited to aviation.

Bob



Amen. But why do any dividing at all? Each number on a compass rose
is 10 seconds. Count the numbers between your present heading and
the desired heading (just go "ten,twenty, thirty...") and interpolate
the overage/underage, and you'll be very close when you roll out,
with probably one more little turn to tidy up.

But you are absolutely right about the compass turn stuff. It's damn
near as ridiculous as parallel, teardrop and direct entries. Or
"reverse sensing". But let's not go there...



"Barry" wrote in message
...
Compass turns are not required by the PTS. In my opinion, teaching and
practicing compass turns is a complete waste of time that could be more
profitably spent on more practical maneuvers. OTOH, timed turns make
perfectly good sense....

Compare that with simply rolling into a standard rate turn (still hard
to
maintain in turbulence) and watching the seconds tick by. BTW, nobody
expects you to roll out anywhere close to a desired heading when
conditions are really bad.

Yes, compass turns are not in the new PTS. However, I think that it's
still a skill worth learning. I prefer (and teach) using timing for
small
turns (heading change 60 degrees or less), and the compass for larger
turns. All you really need to remember is that if the desired heading
is
north, you roll out early, and if the desired heading is south, you go
past it before rolling out. This gets you close, and then you used a
small timed turn to get closer. I really think this is easier than
trying
to figure out the time required for say, a right turn from 320 to 180.
There's also the effect of the turn coordinator calibration.

But I wouldn't insist on compass turns if the pilot makes acceptable
timed
turns.

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:50:10 GMT, wrote:

But you are absolutely right about the compass turn stuff. It's damn
near as ridiculous as parallel, teardrop and direct entries. Or
"reverse sensing". But let's not go there...

cfeyeeye,

Agree with everything but reverse sensing.

I hear on ATIS a lot at JAN for approaches, expect back course 16 right
(16L is closed), so learning to "pull the needle in" is important in this
neck of the woods.

Allen

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:04:53 -0600, A Lieberman
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:50:10 GMT, wrote:

But you are absolutely right about the compass turn stuff. It's damn
near as ridiculous as parallel, teardrop and direct entries. Or
"reverse sensing". But let's not go there...

cfeyeeye,

Agree with everything but reverse sensing.

I hear on ATIS a lot at JAN for approaches, expect back course 16 right
(16L is closed), so learning to "pull the needle in" is important in this
neck of the woods.

Allen


There is no such thing as "reverse sensing". Instruments don't change
the way they sense.

There is only "reverse thinking".

But let's not get started on that.

There is no such thing as "reverse sensing". [...]
There is only "reverse thinking".

There's also "reverse polish notation".

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.