Compass turns revisited

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:17:38 -0700, Toño
wrote:

wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 13:05:12 -0700, "paul kgyy" wrote:

The examiner was not authorized to do this.

Would you give a CFR reference for me on this?

Thanks,

T.


"Not authorized" means there is no authorization.

The PTS sets forth, as stated below, what "shall" and "must" be done,
and what "may" be done at the discretion of the examiner.

Nowhere does the PTS say that the examiner "may" dictate what pages of
a GPS may be viewed during an operation, any more than he "may", for
example, set an OBS or HSI to his preferred setting, rather than what
the appplicant wishes.

If you have information to the contrary, I would find it interesting.




General Information
The Flight Standards Service of the Federal Aviation Administration
(FAA) has developed this practical test as the standard that shall be
used by FAA inspectors and designated pilot examiners when
conducting instrument rating—airplane, helicopter, and powered lift
practical tests, and instrument proficiency checks for all aircraft.

Thispractical test standard (PTS) shall also be used for the
instrument portion of the commercial pilot—airship practical test.
Instructors are expected to use this PTS when preparing applicants for
practical tests.


Applicants should be familiar with this PTS and refer to these
standards during their training

This PTS sets forth the practical test requirements for the addition
of an instrument rating to a pilot certificate in airplanes,
helicopters, and powered-lift aircraft.
Information considered directive in nature is described in this PTS
book in terms, such as “shall” and “must,” indicating the actions are
mandatory. Guidance information is described in terms, such as
“should” and “may,” indicating the actions are desirable or
permissive, but not mandator

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 03:21:03 GMT, "John Clonts"
wrote:

I think its easier just to do it on the dg (or even an obs if your dg has failed and is covered up)-- as
Gardner said, count 10 seconds per "numbered" heading, even if it means putting your finger physically on the
numbers as you count from your current heading to your desired heading...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


Excuse me, but my irrepressible ego requires me to point out that it
was I who suggested this technique to Mr Gardner, as an alternative
to doing mental arithmetic.

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:17:38 -0700, Toño
wrote:

wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 13:05:12 -0700, "paul kgyy" wrote:

The examiner was not authorized to do this.

Would you give a CFR reference for me on this?

Thanks,

T.


This was meant to be included in my previous post.

Note the use of the language about the adherence to the PTS being
'mandatory".


Practical Test Standard Concept
Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 61 specifies
the areas in which knowledge and skill must be demonstrated by the
applicant before the issuance of an instrument rating. The CFRs
provide the flexibility to permit the FAA to publish practical test
standards containing the AREAS OF OPERATION and specific TASKs
in which pilot competency shall be demonstrated. The FAA will revise
this PTS whenever it is determined that changes are needed in the
interest of safety. Adherence to the provisions of the regulations
and the practical test standards is mandatory for evaluation of
instrument pilot applicants

"Not authorized" means there is no authorization.

The PTS sets forth, as stated below, what "shall" and "must" be done,
and what "may" be done at the discretion of the examiner.

Nowhere does the PTS say that the examiner "may" dictate what pages of
a GPS may be viewed during an operation, any more than he "may", for
example, set an OBS or HSI to his preferred setting, rather than what
the appplicant wishes.

An examiner is testing an applicant for an instrument rating. Part of
the evaluation includes ensuring that the applicant is aware of his
situation, for example, non-reception of a signal that the applicant may
be =assuming= is being received. To do so, the examiner, during an
approach, surrepticiously changes the frequency dialed in on the radio
(be it nav or comm, it doesn't matter). The applicant doesn't notice.
Though he completes the approach within tolerances, he may have missed a
radio call or the fact that the zero-dot deviation is due to a dead
radio rather than to his lucky flying.

The examiner fails the applicant. The applicant appeals, claiming that
the PTS does not say that the examiner "may" dictate what frequency the
radios are tuned to.

Your ruling?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:21:35 GMT, Jose
wrote:

The examiner fails the applicant. The applicant appeals, claiming that
the PTS does not say that the examiner "may" dictate what frequency the
radios are tuned to.

Your ruling?

Jose




Which task did he fail, and what is the wording on the pink slip? ?

I think its easier just to do it on the dg (or even an obs if your dg
has failed and is covered up)-- as
Gardner said, count 10 seconds per "numbered" heading, even if it
means putting your finger physically on the
numbers as you count from your current heading to your desired
heading...

Yeah, that works great unless you have a barrel DG (or the DG is
covered) and an indicator without full view of the numbers. I've flown
IFR in such planes.

Michael

Its my understanding that a recent email to DPEs discussed exactly this
scenario and told DPEs that they could not allow pilots to use the GPS
during partial panel. Someone out there may be able to verify this.

I completed (successfully!) my instrument checkride last evening and was not
allowed to use the GPS during this maneuver. I tried to load the approach
and was told "no." Turned to the position page and the DPE turned it to the
NAVCOM page (not much help). Had to rely on the compas and the timer.

Bob

wrote in message
news
On 4 Apr 2005 13:05:12 -0700, "paul kgyy" wrote:

I used it on my checkride and the examiner made me turn to
a different page

The examiner was not authorized to do this.

Pilots need to hold examiners to the same standards that the examiners
hold the pilots, i.e., the standards as described by the PTS.

Pilots don't get to say "I think I'll do it this way, and screw what
the standards say".

Neither does the examiner.

I agree. It also reinforces the direction in which you should be turning
and about how far when your in a panic and lose situational awareness. When
my CFII pointed out this technique, it was a godsend. I can do the math and
was pretty good with timed turns, but it was a nice tool to double check and
speed the process.

Bob


"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

"David Cartwright" wrote in message
...
"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
Some students just don't get math. For them, the mental math required
to figure out how many seconds the turn needs to be is too much to do
while flying under the hood. For others, the jumping around, lead, and
lag of the compass is too difficult to deal with - they prefer to time
the turn, the check the compass only in level flight.

For some reason, despite two 'A' levels in maths, I have brain failure
with my three times table when trying to figure out timed turns. So long
as I take a few seconds to double-check your multiplication, though, and
I sanity check it (e.g. if you're turning 120 degrees it should take less
than a minute, not more) it's not a problem.


I think its easier just to do it on the dg (or even an obs if your dg has
failed and is covered up)-- as Gardner said, count 10 seconds per
"numbered" heading, even if it means putting your finger physically on the
numbers as you count from your current heading to your desired heading...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

wrote in message ...


Excuse me, but my irrepressible ego requires me to point out that it
was I who suggested this technique to Mr Gardner, as an alternative
to doing mental arithmetic.


Sorry about that...

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
I think its easier just to do it on the dg (or even an obs if your dg
has failed and is covered up)-- as
Gardner said, count 10 seconds per "numbered" heading, even if it
means putting your finger physically on the
numbers as you count from your current heading to your desired
heading...

Yeah, that works great unless you have a barrel DG (or the DG is
covered) and an indicator without full view of the numbers. I've flown
IFR in such planes.

Michael


Have you ever flown a plane with OBS's that were designed where you couldn't see most of the numbers around the
perimeter of it? I haven't, but I have seen such on a MS Flight Sim panel for a C210 that I got... It drives
my crazy since it pretty much thwarts the "VOR as a Quadrature Instrument" approach, and other visualizations
that you can otherwise do on the OBS! I have not seen any on the market currently. I wonder during what
years--and by whom--were they manufactured?

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ