Are handheld GPSes becoming a defacto primary nav source?

"jeff" wrote:

If I am told cleared to xxx VOR which is say, 200 nm miles away, I am assuming
I
am cleared to there, so to get there, I will use the navaids available in my
area. So if you was cleared direct to EMP you would use
KLVS V190 DHT V234
then expect more at EMP or close to it.
thats how I would take it, unless told otherwise, If I had questions I would
ask.

Jeff, when you're cleared from your present position to a VOR, you're
cleared along the direct course to the VOR, period. You're not cleared to
develop your own route using other navaids or convenient airways of your
choice. That's why you need GPS or other RNAV equipment to fly such a
clearance. [Ref: 91.181 Course to be flown.]

Not if you are cleared direct. If cleared direct, you are expected to fly direct,
not via other navaids. If you can't comply, you always have the option of saying
"unable". Might help if you have an alternate plan to offer such as the other vOR
routing, or perhaps an approximate heading if you can figure that either from on
board equipment or from a chart.

jeff wrote:

ok, but wasnt there navaids that you could use to get to the point you were
cleared to?
If I am told cleared to xxx VOR which is say, 200 nm miles away, I am assuming I
am cleared to there, so to get there, I will use the navaids available in my
area. So if you was cleared direct to EMP you would use
KLVS V190 DHT V234
then expect more at EMP or close to it.
thats how I would take it, unless told otherwise, If I had questions I would
ask.

Paul Tomblin wrote:

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" said:
to OJC, I checked in with center after takeoff, and was immediately
cleared direct EMP. Now this is 450 NM, and I had filed /A, so they
were obviously assuming I had some other navigation capability. (We did.)


That's rather poor technique. Aircraft shouldn't be cleared direct to
distant fixes unless there's some indication the pilot is capable of
navigating to the fix.

Read the start of the thread. This started off with me being cleared
direct to a navaid that even if I was within its service volume, there
were actually hills higher than my current elevation and higher than the
VOR between me and it, so there is no way in hell I could have received
it.

--
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"jeff" wrote in message ...

ok, but wasnt there navaids that you could use to get to the point you
were
cleared to?
If I am told cleared to xxx VOR which is say, 200 nm miles away, I am
assuming I
am cleared to there, so to get there, I will use the navaids available in
my
area. So if you was cleared direct to EMP you would use
KLVS V190 DHT V234
then expect more at EMP or close to it.
thats how I would take it, unless told otherwise, If I had questions I
would
ask.


Well, that's not "direct". "Direct" to a fix means a straight line from
your present position to the fix.

The AIM addresses the issue of flying direct when outside of NAVAID service
volume limits; see section 5-1-7, paragraphs c.4 and c.5. Also see
paragraph c.7 regarding obstacle clearance rsponsibility.

I raised this same issue with my flight instructor when taking IFR lessons.
He explained that although it's not permissable to FILE an IFR direct route
that requires GPS without having a certified unit, it's OK to request
"direct" if I have my hand-held and I'm in radar contact. So now I always
file a route that meets NAVAID requirements and request "direct" once
established on the filed route. I just let the controller know that "I have
GPS aboard" and my request has never been denied.


"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
This week I did several IFR flights, some in IMC and most in VMC. On a
couple of those flights, ATC offered me direct to the next VOR after the
one I was navigating to, well before I could actually pick up the signal.
One time departing Rochester, they told me to go direct Elmira when I was
less than 500 feet off the ground and there are 2000 foot hills between me
and Elmira. So I turned to the approximate direction, and punched "GOTO"
on my handheld GPS, and followed the GPS's HSI until I climbed up high
enough to get a signal.

They don't offer a vector, or say "direct when able", they just say "05X,
go direct East Texas".

It seems to me that they know we can't recieve that VOR, but as long as
we've got the GPS on board, it doesn't matter to them. I guess as far as
legalities go, we're just ded reckoning in the right general direction
until we pick up the VOR.


--
Paul Tomblin , not speaking for anybody
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; give him a freshly-
charged Electric Eel and chances are he won't bother you for anything
ever again. -- Tanuki

I believe your instructor was wrong. It is permissible to file an IFR plan
with a direct route, even if all you have to navigate direct with is a
handheld or even just a tuna sandwich. You are working harder than you have
to, filing an airways or VOR route then requesting direct later. It doesn't
hurt you any, but you are wasting your time.
wrote in message
. ..
The AIM addresses the issue of flying direct when outside of NAVAID
service
volume limits; see section 5-1-7, paragraphs c.4 and c.5. Also see
paragraph c.7 regarding obstacle clearance rsponsibility.

I raised this same issue with my flight instructor when taking IFR
lessons.
He explained that although it's not permissable to FILE an IFR direct
route
that requires GPS without having a certified unit, it's OK to request
"direct" if I have my hand-held and I'm in radar contact. So now I always
file a route that meets NAVAID requirements and request "direct" once
established on the filed route. I just let the controller know that "I
have
GPS aboard" and my request has never been denied.


"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
This week I did several IFR flights, some in IMC and most in VMC. On a
couple of those flights, ATC offered me direct to the next VOR after the
one I was navigating to, well before I could actually pick up the
signal.
One time departing Rochester, they told me to go direct Elmira when I
was
less than 500 feet off the ground and there are 2000 foot hills between
me
and Elmira. So I turned to the approximate direction, and punched
"GOTO"
on my handheld GPS, and followed the GPS's HSI until I climbed up high
enough to get a signal.

They don't offer a vector, or say "direct when able", they just say
"05X,
go direct East Texas".

It seems to me that they know we can't recieve that VOR, but as long as
we've got the GPS on board, it doesn't matter to them. I guess as far
as
legalities go, we're just ded reckoning in the right general direction
until we pick up the VOR.


--
Paul Tomblin , not speaking for anybody
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; give him a freshly-
charged Electric Eel and chances are he won't bother you for anything
ever again. -- Tanuki

wrote in message
. ..

I raised this same issue with my flight instructor when taking IFR
lessons. He explained that although it's not permissable to FILE
an IFR direct route that requires GPS without having a certified
unit, it's OK to request "direct" if I have my hand-held and I'm in
radar contact. So now I always file a route that meets NAVAID
requirements and request "direct" once established on the filed
route. I just let the controller know that "I have GPS aboard"
and my request has never been denied.


Your instructor is wrong, there's nothing that prohibits filing an IFR
direct route regardless of the status of your nav equipment. Whether or not
the controller can clear you on such a route depends upon radar coverage,
but if he can clear you direct once you're airborne he can also clear you
direct when you're still on the ground.

Your instructor is wrong, there's nothing that prohibits filing an IFR
direct route regardless of the status of your nav equipment. Whether or not
the controller can clear you on such a route depends upon radar coverage,
but if he can clear you direct once you're airborne he can also clear you
direct when you're still on the ground.

On the first day private flying was permitted after 9-11, I filed
direct from Rutland VT to Bloomsburg PA , about 250 miles, with "VFR
GPS in "remarks," and got it! I was quite surprised, but perhaps the
fact that there was extremely little traffic that day had something to
do with it.

But for many years, before GPS or even RNAV, I filed direct from UNV
(central PA) to MAPEL (about 100 miles) direct Dulles, and usually got
it.

I was never asked how I could do it. (I had noticed that the radial
out of IAD (Dulles) that went through MAPEL also went through UNV.)

Direct LISON Direct DCA also worked, for similar reason.

vince norris

Paul Tomblin wrote:
This week I did several IFR flights, some in IMC and most in VMC. On a
couple of those flights, ATC offered me direct to the next VOR after the
one I was navigating to, well before I could actually pick up the signal.
One time departing Rochester, they told me to go direct Elmira when I was
less than 500 feet off the ground and there are 2000 foot hills between me
and Elmira. So I turned to the approximate direction, and punched "GOTO"
on my handheld GPS, and followed the GPS's HSI until I climbed up high
enough to get a signal.

They don't offer a vector, or say "direct when able", they just say "05X,
go direct East Texas".

It seems to me that they know we can't recieve that VOR, but as long as
we've got the GPS on board, it doesn't matter to them. I guess as far as
legalities go, we're just ded reckoning in the right general direction
until we pick up the VOR.



I pretty much always file IFR /u or /a, and I've come to the conclusion
ATC does assume you have some sort of GPS or Loran available. I almost
always get some sort of "direct". I've only been asked once if I had
GPS available, on an IMC Angel Flight from Tulsa to Houston. Soon as I
was handed off to Fort Worth (about McAlester, OK) he inquired about
GPS, then cleared me direct HOU. Another fun part was the arrival.
We did a "best forward speed" intercept of the localizer at 8000, with
the approach flown at 160. On another trip into New Orleans, during a
STAR, I was given a direct to a fix that "shortcutted" part of the
procedure.

I've also wondered if ATC somtimes observes the "quality of your
performance" and then maybe helps/expects more accordingly.

Tom Pappano, PP-ASEL-IA

I put "GPS" in the comment part of the flight plan and file /A. I have an
panel mount non-IFR GPS coupled to the autopilot.

Howard

"hnelson" wrote in message om...
I put "GPS" in the comment part of the flight plan and file /A. I have an
panel mount non-IFR GPS coupled to the autopilot.

I do the same and often get direct. However, FSS complains to no end when I do it.

-Robert