STAR questions Chicago Midway

Hi all. I might attempt a flight from Ann Arbor KARB, to Chicago
Midway KMDW in a few days.

I have a question about the Midway Cicero two departure. There is an
"obstacle" and a "vectors" version of this DP. Lets say I get that DP
as part of my clearance, with a departure on runway 4R. The obstacle
DP say "North bound departures assigned headings 360 degrees clockwise
thru 080 degrees fly runway heading to 1.2 DME, turn right, climb on
heading 100 degrees until leaving 2400, thence via tower assigned
hdg/vector to assigned route." The victors DP say the same except no
mention of the DME.

I'm curious how this works and how tower would likely issue my takeoff
clearance. But what if my assigned heading is 150 degrees. I guess I
ignore the part of the DP that wants a turn to 100 degrees. But for
obstacle clearance I do runway heading till 1.2 DME before tuning to
150 degrees.

If my assigned heading is 040 degrees, I would fly rwy hdg till 1.2
DME, turn right to 100 degrees until leaving 2400, then turn back to
040 unless I get to 2400 feet before 1.2 DME??

Lastly, how would tower likely phrase my initial instruction? Seems
this would be a good candidate for putting NO DP in the comments
section of my flight plan! ... Aaron

akiley wrote:

I have a question about the Midway Cicero two departure. There is an
"obstacle" and a "vectors" version of this DP.

I'm not too up on Jepp plates, but the FAA incarnation only shows one
Cicero 2 departu
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0605/00081CICERO.PDF
And this one you would comply with if you are assigned it as part of
your clearance.

Otherwise, you could, if you wish, comply with the DP:
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0605/EC3TO.PDF (listed under Chicago)

Lets say I get that DP
as part of my clearance, with a departure on runway 4R. The obstacle
DP say "North bound departures assigned headings 360 degrees clockwise
thru 080 degrees fly runway heading to 1.2 DME, turn right, climb on
heading 100 degrees until leaving 2400, thence via tower assigned
hdg/vector to assigned route." The victors DP say the same except no
mention of the DME.

Curious, did you write this backwards? The NACO charts I linked to
above are the other way around: the obstacle DP has no mention of DME,
whereas the SID does.

I'm curious how this works and how tower would likely issue my takeoff
clearance. But what if my assigned heading is 150 degrees. I guess I
ignore the part of the DP that wants a turn to 100 degrees. But for
obstacle clearance I do runway heading till 1.2 DME before tuning to
150 degrees.

The way I read it, the obstacle DP only pertains to headings of 0 to 80
when departing runways 4. So for 150 degree heading, you only need to
climb to 400 ft AGL before turning.

If my assigned heading is 040 degrees, I would fly rwy hdg till 1.2
DME, turn right to 100 degrees until leaving 2400, then turn back to
040 unless I get to 2400 feet before 1.2 DME??

Yup, but only if assigned the Cicero two departure. If not, and it is
VFR below 2400 ft, then you don't need to do that. If you can't
clearly see obstacles, then you should follow the obstacle DP, which,
in my reading, has no mention of DME, but would still require a turn to
100 degrees until 2400 ft.

Lastly, how would tower likely phrase my initial instruction?

I'll take a WAG, but hopefully someone else will correct me. When you
pick up you're clearance you'd get something like "N123AB is cleared to
XYZ via the Cicero two departure, heading 040 Vectors to MUSKY, Victor
123, then as filed, squawk 1234." I've not flown out of Midway, so I
don't know exactly. Sometimes the tower (local controller) will give
you your initial heading when you get your takeoff clearance.
Sometimes it will be given by clearance delivery.

Seems
this would be a good candidate for putting NO DP in the comments
section of my flight plan!

How is that going to help? Doesn't doing something like that make
things worse?

Peter

akiley wrote:

If my assigned heading is 040 degrees, I would fly rwy hdg till 1.2
DME, turn right to 100 degrees until leaving 2400, then turn back to
040 unless I get to 2400 feet before 1.2 DME??

I guess I should state the obvious: if you didn't turn to 100 degrees
first, then you might run into the Sears tower or other tall buildings.
Downtown is more-or-less on a straight-out departure from runways 4.

I'm looking at a very old Jepps. I just received an up to date
government version in the mail today and I see what you're talking
about.

But the reason I was considering "NO DP" in the flight plan is that I'm
nervous I might mess it up, and I don't think, without it, that
departure is going to vector me into something hard.

But that said, I would like to clear up my confusion, which is more to
do with how the tower treats the DP, or if the tower's initial heading
can overule the DP. And maybe how the tower would phrase my takeoff
clearance. For example, if tower say "cleared to takeoff runway 4R fly
runway heading", does that mean fly runway heading, but do the dogleg
the DP spells out, then at 2400 feet go back to 040 heading? Or would
tower, with this DP in my clearance just say cleared for takeoff runway
4R with no further instructions?

Sorry, but my local airport has a very generic DP that basically says..
here are the departure fixes you get to choose, we'll vector you to the
one we choose for you. ... Akiley

akiley wrote:

But the reason I was considering "NO DP" in the flight plan is that I'm
nervous I might mess it up, and I don't think, without it, that
departure is going to vector me into something hard.

If ATC needs you to do the DP and you put "NO DP" then they'll just
read the whole thing to you and you'll have to read it all back. If
you're just not sure about part of the procedure, then ask for
clarification when you get your clearance rather than forcing them to
read the whole thing to you. Or even call them up ahead of time: tell
the tower, when you land, that you have a question about the IFR
departure procedures and you request a phone number to call and ask.

But that said, I would like to clear up my confusion, which is more to
do with how the tower treats the DP, or if the tower's initial heading
can overule the DP.

I'm not sure about this. In general, I don't think that the tower
controller can totally override the DP without telling you that there
is an amendment to your clearance (assuming you were assigned Cicero
two). He can give a temporary vector, then later tell you to resume
the departure procedure, but I doubt he would assign a heading between
360 and 080 in this case because that dogleg is there to avoid
obstacles and he can't vector you toward high terrain when you're below
the MVA.

Most likely, if the tower were to assign a heading, it would be the
initial heading as part of the DP. So in this case, if that heading is
between 360 and 080 you would fly the dogleg course. My guess is that
if one of those headings is required, it will be assigned with some
words to make it clear what is meant. Maybe words to the effect of
"depart via the Cicero two departure, with initial heading of 040."
But maybe not. The departure procedure clearly states that you're to
do the dogleg based on the tower assigned heading/vector.

Now, if you weren't assigned the Cicero departure, then there could be
a conflict between assigned heading and the obstacle DP (although I
think it unlikely) and you should inform the controller that you intend
to fly the published obstacle departure procedure just to make sure
there are no surprises. This kind of thing is more likely late at
night when there is very little traffic and especially at uncontrolled
fields or when the tower is closed.

And maybe how the tower would phrase my takeoff
clearance. For example, if tower say "cleared to takeoff runway 4R fly
runway heading", does that mean fly runway heading, but do the dogleg
the DP spells out, then at 2400 feet go back to 040 heading? Or would
tower, with this DP in my clearance just say cleared for takeoff runway
4R with no further instructions?

All good questions. I think that the tower will not specify anything,
just clear you for takeoff (you'll have your initial heading from
clearance delivery). But if that doesn't happen and the controller's
instruction is ambiguous, then just ask him there and then for
clarification.

Good luck and enjoy your flight,

Peter

akiley wrote:

Hi all. I might attempt a flight from Ann Arbor KARB, to Chicago
Midway KMDW in a few days.

I have a question about the Midway Cicero two departure. There is an
"obstacle" and a "vectors" version of this DP. Lets say I get that DP
as part of my clearance, with a departure on runway 4R. The obstacle
DP say "North bound departures assigned headings 360 degrees clockwise
thru 080 degrees fly runway heading to 1.2 DME, turn right, climb on
heading 100 degrees until leaving 2400, thence via tower assigned
hdg/vector to assigned route." The victors DP say the same except no
mention of the DME.

I'm curious how this works and how tower would likely issue my takeoff
clearance. But what if my assigned heading is 150 degrees. I guess I
ignore the part of the DP that wants a turn to 100 degrees. But for
obstacle clearance I do runway heading till 1.2 DME before tuning to
150 degrees.

ODP are seldom assigned by ATC and only when needed for traffic
separation. At a busy airport with SIDs ATC will never assign the ODP.
You will get one of the SIDs or simply a radar vector heading.

Assuming the DP is part of the flight plan I've been cleared for ...
then maybe what's confusing is that flying the DP is sort of like
following my flight plan with my own navigation, yet at the same time,
I'm on a vector. And doesn't an issued vector usually take precedent
over a flight plan?

But I understand now... Always fly the dogleg if you get an initial
vector from tower between 0 and 080 degrees when departing Runway 4R.
Even though you might get "cleared for takeoff runway 4R fly heading"
you disobey that vector for a few minutes during climbout. But maybe
tower says "cleared for takeoff Runway 4R fly Cicero 2 departure then
heading 040" which would sound much better to me. ... aKiley

Sam Spade wrote:
ODP are seldom assigned by ATC and only when needed for traffic
separation. At a busy airport with SIDs ATC will never assign the ODP.
You will get one of the SIDs or simply a radar vector heading.

Okay, but the Cicero two departure is a SID. In that case, how would
the clearance be worded to differentiate between an initial vector
separate from or preceding the SID (such as "cleared for takeoff,
maintain runway heading"), or as part of the "tower assigned
heading/vector" that is referenced in the SID?

akiley wrote:
Even though you might get "cleared for takeoff runway 4R fly heading"
you disobey that vector for a few minutes during climbout.

Does that make sense to you?

I think you're falling into a trap that pilots often do (especially us
Internet users). We want it to make sense academically,
systematically. It does, but in this case, I think you should approach
it more practically to see how it makes sense.

Being assigned the runway heading would be unusual for a slow climber
in this instance. You probably shouldn't hear ATC even say it. If
that's what you're assigned, one of three things is expected of you: 1)
He gave you what he meant to give you, and you should fly the runway
heading; 2) He gave you what he meant to give you, and you should fly
the DP with the dogleg; 3) He made a mistake about what he gave you.
Are you 100% sure about any of these? Would your safety (or anyone
else's) be compromised if you made the wrong choice?

Ask for clarification from Clearance Delivery if you're not 100% sure.
The first time you get this clearance from Midway, assume that you're
not sure and ask for clarification.

If it's any help, I've departed IFR from MDW 4R in a C172 many times,
and this has never been an issue. They've always made my instructions
clear, and have always been quite pleasant.

This may be moot by now but don't worry, you're most likely to get the MDW 4
DP

I've been flying out of MDW for six years and have never been assigned the
Cicero departure procedure. I always get the MDW 4 and an assigned heading
depending on direction of flight -- they don't want you wandering into ORD's
airspace.

Interestingly you'll probably never get the ILS to 13C either - although you
may get the ILS4R circle to 13C. The only approach you'll get to a RW22 is
a visual or ILS 31C circle to 22.

Tom McDonald
ATP/A&P/IA
www.aviatortom.com


"akiley" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi all. I might attempt a flight from Ann Arbor KARB, to Chicago
Midway KMDW in a few days.

I have a question about the Midway Cicero two departure. There is an
"obstacle" and a "vectors" version of this DP. Lets say I get that DP
as part of my clearance, with a departure on runway 4R. The obstacle
DP say "North bound departures assigned headings 360 degrees clockwise
thru 080 degrees fly runway heading to 1.2 DME, turn right, climb on
heading 100 degrees until leaving 2400, thence via tower assigned
hdg/vector to assigned route." The victors DP say the same except no
mention of the DME.

I'm curious how this works and how tower would likely issue my takeoff
clearance. But what if my assigned heading is 150 degrees. I guess I
ignore the part of the DP that wants a turn to 100 degrees. But for
obstacle clearance I do runway heading till 1.2 DME before tuning to
150 degrees.

If my assigned heading is 040 degrees, I would fly rwy hdg till 1.2
DME, turn right to 100 degrees until leaving 2400, then turn back to
040 unless I get to 2400 feet before 1.2 DME??

Lastly, how would tower likely phrase my initial instruction? Seems
this would be a good candidate for putting NO DP in the comments
section of my flight plan! ... Aaron