NDB Holds

Jose wrote:
At 90 knots it all is just b.s. to try to placate some anal instructor
or check airperson. The holding pattern protected airspace is
designed for a jet aircraft.


I wouldn't go that far. We are also building good habits and attitudes
for the future. One day we may be flying jet aircraft, who knows? The
attitudes you start out with are likely to be the attitudes you end up
with, and the skills you learn from day one are the ones that come back
to you in an emergency.

I have posted almost exactly the same comments here in the past. Of
course, you are correct. The "recommended" entries are really mandatory
for jet aircraft operating at the max permitted speeds. And, so forth.

However, yes, there is plenty of room in the hold for a spam can.

Exactly.

Jose wrote:
At 90 knots it all is just b.s. to try to placate some anal instructor or
check airperson. The holding pattern protected airspace is designed for a
jet aircraft.

I wouldn't go that far. We are also building good habits and attitudes
for the future.

Right. And a good attitude is to not get bogged down in minutia like
calculating outbound leg times for NDB holds when there's more important
stuff to be thinking about.

What's the weather doing? What's my fuel situation, i.e. how long can I
let ATC park me here before I need to head to my alternate? What is my
best alternate given the current situation? Can I review the approach
plate one more time to make sure I really understand the procedure.

Roy Smith wrote:
Jose wrote:

At 90 knots it all is just b.s. to try to placate some anal instructor or
check airperson. The holding pattern protected airspace is designed for a
jet aircraft.

I wouldn't go that far. We are also building good habits and attitudes
for the future.


Right. And a good attitude is to not get bogged down in minutia like
calculating outbound leg times for NDB holds when there's more important
stuff to be thinking about.

What's the weather doing? What's my fuel situation, i.e. how long can I
let ATC park me here before I need to head to my alternate? What is my
best alternate given the current situation? Can I review the approach
plate one more time to make sure I really understand the procedure.

And, what are the odds of having to hold at an NDB in the 21st Century?

In article , Sam Spade
wrote:

And, what are the odds of having to hold at an NDB in the 21st Century?

Essentially zero. But, if your instructor (or flight school) is dumb
enough to send you for an instrument checkride in an airplane equipped with
an ADF, you may be called upon to demonstrate one. Which means they need
to train you to be able to perform one. Which, of course, is a huge waste
of your time and money, since it's a skill you will never use again after
the checkride.

Which is why, earlier in this thread, I said:

But, the real way to do NBD holds is to tear that piece of crap ADF out of
the panel and train in a GPS-equipped airplane. If your school doesn't
have GPS in their trainers, find another school.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:12:01 -0700, Sam Spade wrote:

And, what are the odds of having to hold at an NDB in the 21st Centur

On a few occasions, I've held at an NDB, but only one of those occasions
was in the 21st century, and not in the past few years since I've had a
GPS.

I held at the EPM NDB for 1/2 hour or so waiting for weather to improve,
before we had a GPS approach.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Roy Smith wrote:
In article , Sam Spade
wrote:

And, what are the odds of having to hold at an NDB in the 21st Century?

Essentially zero. But, if your instructor (or flight school) is dumb
enough to send you for an instrument checkride in an airplane equipped with
an ADF, you may be called upon to demonstrate one. Which means they need
to train you to be able to perform one. Which, of course, is a huge waste
of your time and money, since it's a skill you will never use again after
the checkride.


Although I have never been assigned an NDB hold in the U.S, I have been
assigned NDB routes and holds in Canada. Just a couple of months ago, I
was instructed to hold at the Muskoka NDB. A few months earlier, I was
given "expect NDB approach... into Buttonville airport". This airport
is one of the largest GA fields in Toronto and has a perfectly good LOC
approach, but folks up there don't seem to shy away from NDBs.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote:
Although I have never been assigned an NDB hold in the U.S, I have been
assigned NDB routes and holds in Canada. Just a couple of months ago, I
was instructed to hold at the Muskoka NDB. A few months earlier, I was
given "expect NDB approach... into Buttonville airport". This airport
is one of the largest GA fields in Toronto and has a perfectly good LOC
approach, but folks up there don't seem to shy away from NDBs.

Well, then I would fall back (yet again) to what I said earlier in this
thread:

But, the real way to do NBD holds is to tear that piece of crap ADF out of
the panel and train in a GPS-equipped airplane. If your school doesn't
have GPS in their trainers, find another school.

Any flight school (at least in the US) which is not doing instrument
training in GPS equipped airplanes today is just ripping off their students.

GPS is no longer the way of the future, it's the way of today. I don't
think you can buy a new IFR airplane today which doesn't come with GPS as
standard factory equipment. This is everyday, routine gear for the
majority of the GA fleet. Not training new instrument pilots to use GPS is
like not training new primary students to use a nosewheel.

The way to do an NDB hold today is to punch the NDB name into your GPS and
hold at it just like you would at any other fix. If I was going into
Buttonville, and there wasn't a GPS overlay for the NDB, I would tell the
controller, "unable NDB approach, request LOC".

Roy:
Expecting (assuming) all IFR training in the US to be in aircraft
that have IFR-certified GPS is a bit unrealistic.

Would you like to pay for an IFR-certified GPS to be installed in
my cherokee? I'd be delighted, and would even buy you dinner.

On 29 Oct 2006 19:58:08 GMT, Blanche wrote:

Roy:
Expecting (assuming) all IFR training in the US to be in aircraft
that have IFR-certified GPS is a bit unrealistic.

Would you like to pay for an IFR-certified GPS to be installed in
my cherokee? I'd be delighted, and would even buy you dinner.

Then what would a lifetime subscription for database updates be worth?

RK Henry

Blanche wrote:
Expecting (assuming) all IFR training in the US to be in aircraft
that have IFR-certified GPS is a bit unrealistic.

I guess that depends on your definition of "realistic".

I certainly think it is inappropriate, in the year 2006, to be giving
instrument training in an airplane that is not IFR GPS equipped. You
should be training people to operate in the kind of environment they are
going to be flying in after they pass their checkride. For the most part,
that means GPS. And that's going to be even more true every year that goes
by.

Would you like to pay for an IFR-certified GPS to be installed in
my cherokee? I'd be delighted, and would even buy you dinner.

I take it that you use your cherokee for instrument instruction? If that's
the case, then you should invest the capital to equip it with gear which
allows you to teach your students what they need to know. I'm afraid I
have no particular desire to fund the upgrade to your plane, however.