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#11
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What do you do in the real world?
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Hash: SHA1 Mxsmanic wrote: ArtP writes: You might have to explain why you accepted the route if you knew you could not fly it. Many routes will eventually intersect terrain if there are mountains nearby. Nevertheless, you might well accept the route if you expect to be given a new heading or altitude before you get near terrain. If your radio fails, however, the situation changes. Radio failure has nothing to do with what the OP asked. He asked about the routing should he have been IMC. ArtP's inference still stands. If you are IMC and accepted a route that you may not have been able to fly, you will have some explaining to do about why you accepted a route that could put you into that mountainside. BL. - -- Brad Littlejohn | Email: Unix Systems Administrator, | Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF8wBbyBkZmuMZ8L8RAqG9AJ4s7drKopSl/OCrtklhDShTHFPchgCgjLJF hvMYao1VsmmZOcehYYgeE8g= =B3vt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#12
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What do you do in the real world?
In article ,
Ron Rosenfeld wrote: On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:03:57 -0800, Ron Garret wrote: Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was going to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and indeed, near Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS, LYNXX8 arrival, followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R. My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost comm before they changed my routing? By the book I should have continued to fly my clearance, which would have run me into a mountain around GMN, so that's probably not the right answer. Viable possibilities seem to include: 1. Divert (or climb) just enough to avoid the terrain around GMN, fly to VNY, and commence an approach from there. 2. As above, but vector myself for the ILS before reaching VNY. 3&4 - as above but fly to LHS and the LYNXX8 arrival. 5. Divert to the nearest airport with an IAP. My aircraft is /G so I know pretty much exactly where I am at all times. rg "By the book", the route you fly should be the last clearance. Yes, I know that. That is why the subject of this post is "What do you do in the real world?" I don't understand, however, why you would run into a mountain if you are following the altitude rules of the "lost-comm" regulations. Is your aircraft not able to climb to the minimum IFR altitude for your route? The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR altitude on the route. The first 250 miles or so are over pretty flat terrain. It is only shortly before you get to the destination that the mountains begin. rg |
#13
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What do you do in the real world?
In article ,
ArtP wrote: On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 06:51:48 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld wrote: Is your aircraft not able to climb to the minimum IFR altitude for your route? If that is the case, you have an emergency situation and can do whatever you need to do. You might have to explain why you accepted the route if you knew you could not fly it. Of course I could fly it, just not at the initially assigned altitude. That is why my option #1 was to climb. rg |
#14
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What do you do in the real world?
In article ,
Ron Garret wrote: The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR altitude on the route. Correction (because I know the FAR mavens are going to be all over me for that one): I should have said, "The minimum IFR altitude is not easily determined." By the book it's either 1000 or 2000 feet about the highest obstacle within 4 nautical miles depending on whether or not the area is designated mountainous. Taking that rule and actually figuring out where you are supposed to begin to climb and how high (and, more to the point, where you are supposed to begin to descend, because your destination is just on the other side of the mountains in this case) is not such an easy thing to do in flight. rg |
#15
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What do you do in the real world?
Ron Garret wrote: The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR altitude on the route. Not so. If you're off an airway, then the off-route obstacle clearance altitude (OROCA) applies, and is printed on the LO charts. The first 250 miles or so are over pretty flat terrain. It is only shortly before you get to the destination that the mountains begin. Lost comm minimum altitudes apply per segment, not per leg. So in this case, you would need to climb when you enter the grid square containing tall rocks. - FChE |
#16
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What do you do in the real world?
"Ron Garret" wrote in message ...
In article , Ron Garret wrote: The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR altitude on the route. Correction (because I know the FAR mavens are going to be all over me for that one): I should have said, "The minimum IFR altitude is not easily determined." By the book it's either 1000 or 2000 feet about the highest obstacle within 4 nautical miles depending on whether or not the area is designated mountainous. Taking that rule and actually figuring out where you are supposed to begin to climb and how high (and, more to the point, where you are supposed to begin to descend, because your destination is just on the other side of the mountains in this case) is not such an easy thing to do in flight. Aren't the Grid MORAs shown on your enroute charts? You said you are /G equipped, and thus know where you are. |
#17
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What do you do in the real world?
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:38:27 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote: Of course I could fly it, just not at the initially assigned altitude. That is why my option #1 was to climb. All I said was that it was not an option (assuming no emergency) because you are expected to fly at or above the MEA for the route even if it is higher than the initially assigned altitude. |
#18
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What do you do in the real world?
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote: Radio failure has nothing to do with what the OP asked. He asked about the routing should he have been IMC. ArtP's inference still stands. If you are IMC and accepted a route that you may not have been able to fly, He could fly it just fine, it was a vector. ATC does it all the time and in reality isn't a route at all as there is no non radar component to it. you will have some explaining to do about why you accepted a route that could put you into that mountainside. Hogwash. ATC would never vector an airplane if every aircraft refused because at some point you would hit something. The answer to the question is if you lose comm you take care of yourself. It is an emergency situation if terrain is a factor. You do what ever you have to to avoid terrain/obstructions. |
#19
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What do you do in the real world?
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Hash: SHA1 Newps wrote: A Guy Called Tyketto wrote: Radio failure has nothing to do with what the OP asked. He asked about the routing should he have been IMC. ArtP's inference still stands. If you are IMC and accepted a route that you may not have been able to fly, He could fly it just fine, it was a vector. ATC does it all the time and in reality isn't a route at all as there is no non radar component to it. If it was a vector, that changes the whole story. If it was a clearance that he wasn't going to be able to accept, then there would be some questions. you will have some explaining to do about why you accepted a route that could put you into that mountainside. Hogwash. ATC would never vector an airplane if every aircraft refused because at some point you would hit something. The answer to the question is if you lose comm you take care of yourself. It is an emergency situation if terrain is a factor. You do what ever you have to to avoid terrain/obstructions. Oh, I agree. ATC would never vector a plane like that, don't get me wrong. But as the OP had mentioned, if he accepted a routing that he believed he couldn't fly and the weather was IMC, the question would have to be asked on why he accepted that routing in the first place. BL. - -- Brad Littlejohn | Email: Unix Systems Administrator, | Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF80oHyBkZmuMZ8L8RAkfRAKDzFEOSiRcQm15A1HjHPo YsysLEWACgil9H TCKtdW0HAN+xSn/DofOI5Mk= =25D3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#20
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What do you do in the real world?
In article ,
"John R. Copeland" wrote: "Ron Garret" wrote in message ... In article , Ron Garret wrote: The assigned route was not on an airway, and so there is no minimum IFR altitude on the route. Correction (because I know the FAR mavens are going to be all over me for that one): I should have said, "The minimum IFR altitude is not easily determined." By the book it's either 1000 or 2000 feet about the highest obstacle within 4 nautical miles depending on whether or not the area is designated mountainous. Taking that rule and actually figuring out where you are supposed to begin to climb and how high (and, more to the point, where you are supposed to begin to descend, because your destination is just on the other side of the mountains in this case) is not such an easy thing to do in flight. Aren't the Grid MORAs shown on your enroute charts? You said you are /G equipped, and thus know where you are. Heh, you know, I had forgotten all about those. I've never had occasion to use them until now. rg |
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