A-4 / A-7 Question

Daryl Hunt wrote:
"Replacement_Tommel"
'SINVA LIDBABY wrote in message
...

hate to bust your bubble but I entered the AF as a Recip Mechanic. It

was

later on changed to Propulsion Technician. My uniforms weren't green.

They

were black.

The P-38 was the first fighter to be able to disengage anytime it wished.
The others didn't have that option. As one Lighting pilot put it, "If I

was

Jumped from above and didn't like the situation, I just disengaged". If

the

38 lost an engine, they found the nearest cloud bank and hid out. Unless
you were in one of the pieces of crap that was sold to the British, that

is.

In this discussion, I presume the export versions mentioned below
and the "pieces of crap ... sold to the British" both refer to the
Lightning I and Lightning II (which were modified by due to the
British specifications, which called for a different engine
and no turbosupercharging (in the case of the Lightning I),
along with other system changes (radios, O2 equipment, etc.).

None of the Lightning Is were actually accepted by the British.
The Lightning IIs were similarly rejected by the British, even
though these were from a later specification and would have
suffered from none of the flaws that the British felt the
Lightning I suffered. The Lightning I's were used by the USAAF
as P-322 or RP-322 aricraft, IIRC, while the Lightning IIs were
reworked on the assembly lines, becoming P-38F or G models.
British pilots never flew the Lightning in combat that I've
seen documented. Later P-38s and F-4/F-5 aircraft used
by the Free French, Chinese, etc., were supplied straight
out of normal production and were therefore identical to
US airframes when delivered- radios, etc., may have been
changed out, but the aircraft themselves were straight off
the assembly lines as standard delivery models. So the
British never bought (or paid for) any Lightnings from
Lockheed. Perhaps they might have if the contracts
(especially for the Lightning II) were under the later
lend-lease program, but they weren't and the British
nearly defaulted on the contract, being "saved" from
doing so when the US Army snapped up all Lightnings
after the US entry into the war.


Now, what was the main difference between the export 38s and the

domestic?

Comon Hero, let's hear it.


They had crappier engines installed in them.


BZZTTT, wrong answer. The domestics had counterrotating engines. If you
lost and engine, the torgue factor was lessened. The Exports had right turn
engines only and were prone to spriral when the Left Engine was lost.


These export models did indeed have C series 1710's, which were
installed in the XP-38, but abandoned for engines with different gear
cases (F series I think, don't have reference handy). The C
series both rotated in the same direction to ease supply issues, and
were common to the P-40s in British service. They also developed less
power than the later series engines. The result of the rotation
change from the P-38's was poorer handling, IIRC, but the main
performance problem was related to the removal of the
turbosuperchargers. Supercharger production was fairly low rate at
the time, and up to the placement of the order, air combat had taken
place at relatively low altitudes. By the time the aircraft were
coming off the assembly line, British requirements no longer matched
what they had ordered. The lack of turbosupercharger for the V-1710
engines resulted in high altitude performance which was not acceptable
to the British (it was, however, within the performance specs of
the contract). There was also the issue of high speed buffet, but
that was also something not specified in the contract, and corrected
shortly thereafter by introduction of the leading edge fillets for
the wing center sections.

BTW, as far as entering a spiral if the left engine was lost,
the right hand rotation of the prop would have resulted in the
same rotation on the remaining engine whether in a Lightning I
or P-38 of any model except the XP (props on production P-38s
rotated outwards, so the right engine had right rotation).
This actually INCREASED P-factor which resulted in yawing
and rolling tendencies, but was found to be necessary during
flight testing of the XP-38 due to disturbed airflow over
the wing center section.

As a note, the XP-38 and Ligntning I engine nacelles are
easily distinguishable from other models, as the thrust line
off the engine gearbox was lower on the C series, and the
prop sits visibly lower on the those two aircraft than on
the P-38s using the later series engine. The XP of course,
had numerous other differences and didn't really look like
any of the P-38s from the YP on.

Mike

(Marc Reeve) wrote in message m...
Daryl Hunt wrote:

The 51st Fighter Wing of Osan AB, Korea had a few P-38s as in 1950.

Their main type was the F-82 from '48 to May '51 when they switched to
F-86s.

They
were trying to get rid of them as quickly as possible. Lose one and you
get a brand new F-80. Didn't take them long. They also had a few P-51s
as well.

The 82nd Fighter Wing used the P-38s for Escort Duties as well during Korea
before they were replaced.

Who? According to

http://www.strategic-air-command.com...ghterWings.htm

the 82nd Fighter Wing was in Europe as part of SAC from Jan '48 to
October '49 then inactivated. Are you referring to another unit
maybe?

There isn't a lot of info on the P-38, the P-47 or the P-51 but just enough
to verify that they were still in service in 1950 at the beginning of the
Korean War. But talking with some Korean Air Vets, they stated that the
buried many of them to get the new jets.

The USAF had gotten rid of the P-38 and P-47 by '50, though some ANG
units might have still had P-47s. The P-51 was used throughout the
entire Korean War IIRC.

~Michael

"Daryl Hunt" wrote in message ...
"Replacement_Tommel"
'SINVA LIDBABY wrote in message
...
hate to bust your bubble but I entered the AF as a Recip Mechanic. It
was
later on changed to Propulsion Technician. My uniforms weren't green.
They
were black.

The P-38 was the first fighter to be able to disengage anytime it wished.
The others didn't have that option. As one Lighting pilot put it, "If I
was
Jumped from above and didn't like the situation, I just disengaged". If
the
38 lost an engine, they found the nearest cloud bank and hid out. Unless
you were in one of the pieces of crap that was sold to the British, that
is.
Now, what was the main difference between the export 38s and the
domestic?
Comon Hero, let's hear it.


They had crappier engines installed in them.

BZZTTT, wrong answer. The domestics had counterrotating engines. If you
lost and engine, the torgue factor was lessened. The Exports had right turn
engines only and were prone to spriral when the Left Engine was lost.



BTW what does that have to do with the statement "Because an air-cooled
engine
is a lot more rugged when hit by groundfire than a liquid-cooled engine
is."?

BTW are you claiming to have worked on P-38s now?

Give your trolling a rest for a bit.



And I trust you know why the P-38s weren't considered a great fighter in
ETO and
why most of them were shipped off to the PTO don't you?

Do you? Or are you going to post something by a long since dead author.
Newsflash, those are opinions as well.





BTW red, he'll just claim that the Air Force History Support Office is
full of it...

No, just you.


So you admit that they were right and that P-38s were withdrawn before the
Korean War then?

My vision may be failing now but it was fine when I saw the squadron of them
overfly the Dairy I was living at at the time. And they were out of Buckley
Air Field outside of Denver. In otherwords, Air National Guard.

According to

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/...ty/buckley.htm

Buckley was a Naval Air Station from '47 to '59.

~Michael

On 17 Oct 2003 07:52:17 -0700, Michael wrote:

My vision may be failing now but it was fine when I saw the squadron of them
overfly the Dairy I was living at at the time. And they were out of Buckley
Air Field outside of Denver. In otherwords, Air National Guard.

According to

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/...ty/buckley.htm

Buckley was a Naval Air Station from '47 to '59.

Oh now you're just trolling Daryl. ;-)

Dave
--
You can talk about us, but you can't talk without us!
US Army Signal Corps!!
www.geocities.com/davidcasey98

B Co, 404th Signal Battalion,
404th Infantry Division (Lemming)
"We *are* UMA!"

"David Casey" wrote in message
news
On 17 Oct 2003 07:52:17 -0700, Michael wrote:

My vision may be failing now but it was fine when I saw the squadron of
them
overfly the Dairy I was living at at the time. And they were out of
Buckley
Air Field outside of Denver. In otherwords, Air National Guard.

According to

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/...ty/buckley.htm

Buckley was a Naval Air Station from '47 to '59.

Oh now you're just trolling Daryl. ;-)

He stated a fact, Troll. Buckley has been through so many Command Changes,
the USAF is now the flavor of the month.

Daryl Hunt wrote:

"David Casey" wrote in message
news
On 17 Oct 2003 07:52:17 -0700, Michael wrote:

My vision may be failing now but it was fine when I saw the squadron of
them
overfly the Dairy I was living at at the time. And they were out of
Buckley
Air Field outside of Denver. In otherwords, Air National Guard.

According to

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/...ty/buckley.htm

Buckley was a Naval Air Station from '47 to '59.

Oh now you're just trolling Daryl. ;-)

He stated a fact, Troll. Buckley has been through so many Command Changes,
the USAF is now the flavor of the month.

but how do you square the fact that it was Navy during the "late 50's"
with your claim that a flight of Air Force P/F-38's was based there?

face it, you're breaking the law again with your posts in this thread.

redc1c4,
http://www.buckley.af.mil/heritage.htm (base history starts on pg 5 %-)
--
A Troop - 1st Squadron
404th Lemming Armored Cavalry

"Velox et Capillatus!"

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:30:40 -0600, Daryl Hunt wrote:

According to

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/...ty/buckley.htm

Buckley was a Naval Air Station from '47 to '59.

Oh now you're just trolling Daryl. ;-)

He stated a fact, Troll. Buckley has been through so many Command Changes,
the USAF is now the flavor of the month.

Funny, it appears someone else showed you to be wrong *again*. So, now
we're just trolling you, right? LOL!

Dave
--
You can talk about us, but you can't talk without us!
US Army Signal Corps!!
www.geocities.com/davidcasey98

B Co, 404th Signal Battalion,
404th Infantry Division (Lemming)
"We *are* UMA!"

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Marc Reeve" wrote in message
...
Daryl Hunt wrote:

The 51st Fighter Wing of Osan AB, Korea had a few P-38s as in 1950.
They
were trying to get rid of them as quickly as possible. Lose one and you
get a brand new F-80. Didn't take them long. They also had a few P-51s
as well.

The 82nd Fighter Wing used the P-38s for Escort Duties as well during
Korea
before they were replaced.

There isn't a lot of info on the P-38, the P-47 or the P-51 but just
enough
to verify that they were still in service in 1950 at the beginning of
the
Korean War. But talking with some Korean Air Vets, they stated that the
buried many of them to get the new jets.

Martin Caidin, not that he's necessarily a valid source, stated such in
the intro to his book "Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38". Claimed that orders
came down to "dispose" of the Lightnings - but they weren't to be handed
to our nominal allies, the South Koreans, so they were bulldozed into a
ditch and covered over. (He then maunders about how much those planes
would be worth today, yadda yadda yadda.) The implication was that he
had witnessed it personally, but again, it was Caidin, so who knows if
that was true.

-Marc

(actually, my bull**** alarm is pinging - he may have been referring to
the initial withdrawal of US troops from Korea that led the DPRK to
think it'd be safe to invade. I'll have to dig up the book & check.)
--

I suspect he's right BUT that incident happened in 1945 , a lot of other
planes got treated the same way right after the war as the units
were disbanded and the men shipped home.

I'm probably going to fan all sorts of foolishness, but here's what
the Air Force History Office, via _Combat Units of the Air Force_,
Maurer Maurer, Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., and
_Combat Squadrons of the Air Force_, Maurer Maurer, Governmnet
Printing Office, Washington, D.C.
have to say on the subject of Fighter Equipment in the post-WW 2 era:

P-38 units:
The following units were equipped with P-38s just postwar:
1st Fighter Group - Inactivated October 1945
8th Fighter Group - Converted to P-51s in 1946
49th Fighter Group - Converted to P-51s in 1946
51st Fighter Group - Inactivated in late 1945
57th Fighter Group - Converted to P-51s in early 1947
67th Recon Group - Inactivated in March 1946
347th Fighter Group - Inactivated December 45
474th Fighter Group - Inactivated November 45
475th Fighter Group - Stationed at Kimpo, Koea in September '45
Converted to P-51s in mid '46.
Moved to Japan in 1948, Inactivated April '49
So - A couple of things- I looks liks all the P-38s wer gone from
frontline units by January 1947. A few might have been around long
enough to get redesignated as F-38s, but none were serving in combat
units.
As far as the Guard and Reserves goes, the Air Force Reserve didn't
have organized flying units at that time. When it did organize units,
they "partnered" with active units at the same bases, flying the same
equipment. (Similar to the Reserve Associate Units today).
The Air National Guard was more formally organized - Light Bomber
units flew B-26s, (Invaders), and Fighter Units West of the
Mississippi floew F-51s. Fighter units in the East flew P-47s. This
started to get a bit jumbled up as units converted to other types -
F-80s and F-84B/Cs mostly, (The B C model Hogs were pretty much
hopeless as combat aircraft) but still pretty much held true until
after the Korean War. While each squadron had a couple of T-6s, an
L-5, or similar, and a C-47 as hacks, the Guard never got F-38s.

The F-47 and the F-51 stuck around for quite a while.
Here's the pre-Korean War situation
Active F-47 units we
18th Fighter Group - converted to F-51s in '48
36th Fighter Group - converted to F-80s in '47
81st Fighter Group - Flew F-47s between January 48 and May 49.
86th FIghter Group - converted to F-84s in 1950.

Active F-51 units: Until outbreak of the Korean War
8th Fighter Group/Fighter Bomber Group - converted to F-80s in 1950.
10th Recon Group/Tactical Recon Group - converted to RF-80s in April
'49
18th Fighter Group/Fighter Bomber Group - converted to F-80s in late
1949.
35th Fighter Group/Fighter Interceptor Group - conv. to F-80s in 1950.
49th FG/FBG - conv to F-80s in '48 (But there weren't enough to go
around - they had F-51s on hand until late '49)

At the time of the North Korean Invasion, all Fighter Groups of the
Far East Air Forces (Later PACAF) were equipped with F-80s. There
were also 3 Fighter(All Weather) Squadrons that had just traded their
clapped-out F-61s for F-82s.
It was soon found that the F-80, flying from Japanese bases, didn't
have enough loiter time to supply proper close air support to the UN
troops on the Lorean Peninsula. They also had runway requirements
that made their use from unimprooved airstrips difficult. To supply
proper CAS (Since at that time, CAS meant flying low and visually
dropping bombs and strafing), FEAF decided to re-equip some units with
the F-51s that ere still in storage in Japan and the Philippines. The
8th FBG and 35th FIG each re-equipped 2 of their 3 squadrons with
F-51s, and maitained a single F-80 squadron. The 18th FBG equipped
all of its squadrons with F-51s, and also acted as host units for the
77 Squadron, RAAF, and 2 Sqn, RSAAF, Mustang squadrons that had been
part of the Japanese occupation force. The 8th FBG reverted to all
F-80s in December 1950, and the 35th FIG re-equipped with jets (F-80s,
F-85s, and F-94s) in 1951. The 18th FBG flew F-51s until 1953, when
they re-equipped with F86F-20s. (The Fighter-Bomber version with 4
wing pylons)

Most of the Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard units were called
up during the Korean War. With the exception of a couple of Light
Bomber and Troop Carrier groups, the called-up Reserve units were
disbanded, and their personnel used to fill out active units. Air
Guard units fleshed out the expanding Air Defence Command, Tactical
Air Command, and Strategic Air Command organizations. Some activated
Air Guard units did deploy overseas, but all fighter units who did so
were converted to either F-84s or F-86s.
The point to that ramble is that if the Air FOrce had decided that it
really needed F-47s rather than F-51s be used in Korea, they were
immediately available and ready. (BTW the last F-47 flying hours were
recorded in Calender Year 1955, according to the Air Force Safety
Office)
With the rapid expansion of the USAF during the Korean War, there were
sometimes more units being formed than new aircraft were available to
equip them. The following units were temporatily equipped with F-51s
until their jets became available.

21st Fighter Bomber Group - Activated in Jan. '53, conv. to F-86 in
April 53
50th FBG - Activated Jan 53, conv to F-86 in Spring 53
366th FBG - Activated Jan 53, conv to F-84 in Spring 53
479th FBG - Activated Dec 52 - COnv to F-86 early 53.

So to make a long story short - No F-38s in any combat units after
1947.
Nobody bulldozing F-51s in order to get jets. In fact, 3 units put
jets into storage in otder to reequip with F-51s.

--
Pete Stickney

In article ,
says...
"Daryl Hunt" wrote in message ...
"Replacement_Tommel"
'SINVA LIDBABY wrote in message
...
hate to bust your bubble but I entered the AF as a Recip Mechanic. It
was
later on changed to Propulsion Technician. My uniforms weren't green.
They
were black.

The P-38 was the first fighter to be able to disengage anytime it wished.
The others didn't have that option. As one Lighting pilot put it, "If I
was
Jumped from above and didn't like the situation, I just disengaged". If
the
38 lost an engine, they found the nearest cloud bank and hid out. Unless
you were in one of the pieces of crap that was sold to the British, that
is.
Now, what was the main difference between the export 38s and the
domestic?
Comon Hero, let's hear it.


They had crappier engines installed in them.

BZZTTT, wrong answer. The domestics had counterrotating engines. If you
lost and engine, the torgue factor was lessened. The Exports had right turn
engines only and were prone to spriral when the Left Engine was lost.



BTW what does that have to do with the statement "Because an air-cooled
engine
is a lot more rugged when hit by groundfire than a liquid-cooled engine
is."?

BTW are you claiming to have worked on P-38s now?

Give your trolling a rest for a bit.



And I trust you know why the P-38s weren't considered a great fighter in
ETO and
why most of them were shipped off to the PTO don't you?

Do you? Or are you going to post something by a long since dead author.
Newsflash, those are opinions as well.





BTW red, he'll just claim that the Air Force History Support Office is
full of it...

No, just you.


So you admit that they were right and that P-38s were withdrawn before the
Korean War then?

My vision may be failing now but it was fine when I saw the squadron of them
overfly the Dairy I was living at at the time. And they were out of Buckley
Air Field outside of Denver. In otherwords, Air National Guard.

According to

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/...ty/buckley.htm

Buckley was a Naval Air Station from '47 to '59.


Did you also note he went from one to a squadron.....

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
says...
"Daryl Hunt" wrote in message
...
"Replacement_Tommel"
'SINVA LIDBABY wrote in
message
...
hate to bust your bubble but I entered the AF as a Recip Mechanic.
It
was
later on changed to Propulsion Technician. My uniforms weren't
green.
They
were black.

The P-38 was the first fighter to be able to disengage anytime it
wished.
The others didn't have that option. As one Lighting pilot put it,
"If I
was
Jumped from above and didn't like the situation, I just
disengaged". If
the
38 lost an engine, they found the nearest cloud bank and hid out.
Unless
you were in one of the pieces of crap that was sold to the British,
that
is.
Now, what was the main difference between the export 38s and the
domestic?
Comon Hero, let's hear it.


They had crappier engines installed in them.

BZZTTT, wrong answer. The domestics had counterrotating engines. If
you
lost and engine, the torgue factor was lessened. The Exports had
right turn
engines only and were prone to spriral when the Left Engine was lost.



BTW what does that have to do with the statement "Because an
air-cooled
engine
is a lot more rugged when hit by groundfire than a liquid-cooled
engine
is."?

BTW are you claiming to have worked on P-38s now?

Give your trolling a rest for a bit.



And I trust you know why the P-38s weren't considered a great
fighter in
ETO and
why most of them were shipped off to the PTO don't you?

Do you? Or are you going to post something by a long since dead
author.
Newsflash, those are opinions as well.





BTW red, he'll just claim that the Air Force History Support
Office is
full of it...

No, just you.


So you admit that they were right and that P-38s were withdrawn
before the
Korean War then?

My vision may be failing now but it was fine when I saw the squadron
of them
overfly the Dairy I was living at at the time. And they were out of
Buckley
Air Field outside of Denver. In otherwords, Air National Guard.

According to

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/...ty/buckley.htm

Buckley was a Naval Air Station from '47 to '59.


Did you also note he went from one to a squadron.....

Nice troll, moron. I didn't say that it was a single one. If it had been
one, it very well have been the Confederate AF. There were too many to be
from the CAF. But I don't expect you to understand. Just keep trolling on
and reading those books. Just remember, those are just opinions as well.