Bad Stories about Plane Purchases

In article nospam-4DDD2A.22064411082004@shawnews, tony roberts
wrote:

One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
accident damage.

Look at it this way: when considering Cessnas and Pipers, why take a
chance on an aircraft with recent damage history when there are so
many other aircraft available?

Implied by my use of "recent" is the recognition that old old
old damage history that was properly repaired shouldn't be
an issue.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

The issue arises over what different people, namely the buyer, the seller,
and each of their mechanics, consider and define "properly repaired",
"completely repaired", "adequately repaired", "repaired by a Brand C or P or
XYZ certified repair station", or "repaired to new condition". None of
those things actually tell you how well it was repaired.

Certain types of damage may go unseen by a mechanic that thinks he's
"properly repairing" the plane, and then those things get covered up by
fuselage skin and may be in locations where inspection plates just don't
allow a good view. It also may be impractical to remove the skin to
properly view the repairs during a pre-buy.

Depending on the type of damage, you may or may not be able to determine how
the airplane was flown. One example would be a replaced or repaired
firewall on a 182. If the plane was consistently and repeatedly landed hard
on it's nose wheel that the firewall buckled, what else might be slightly
"tweaked" in the engine mounts, landing gear, or airframe??

IMHO, damage history, unless completely explained and repairs well
documented and "inspectable" give me a certain "fear of the unknown" and the
price should be adjusted accordingly.

Jim Burns


"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-4DDD2A.22064411082004@shawnews...
Hi John

One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
accident damage.
Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
years ago.
So What?
They have flown beautifully for more than 30 years since the accident -
so what is the big deal? I absolutely don't get it. - It would be
different if the accident was 5 flight hours ago - but these are more
than a major TBO away.

Tony


In article ,
Jon Kraus wrote:

I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
experiences. Thanks !!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
(possible Mooney buyer)





--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE


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tony roberts wrote:

Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
years ago. So What?

You are quite correct. Properly repaired accident damage is no problem, and the
longer it's been since the repair, the less important it is. Unless, as you say, the
damage is recent, it's just a tool that unscrupulous buyers use to try to talk the
price down.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Fugitaboutit. I suggested that idea before he bought the pathfinder. It
seemed to make perfect logic to me, but it seemed to pass Jay by.

What, you mus' tink I'm made-a-money?

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

The jury is still out on our recent purchase, but all-in-all, it was a
good, but stressful experience. The stressor being that, besides a
house, this was my biggest single outlay of money ever. No matter how
good your prebuy, there is always potential for a major disaster after
the plane becomes yours. What will you do if you blow an engine early
on? My partner and I decided that, if the worst happened, the plane
would have to sit for a while while we saved money for a new engine.
This was a risk we looked at and decided up front that we were willing
to take.

Expect the prebuy negotiations, inspections, and paperwork to take a
lot longer and cost more than you anticipate, especially if you are
buying from a private owner. We filled out the FAA Bill-of-Sale form,
but not the Request-for-Registration form, which meant we weren't
quite legal for a couple of days. These forms are virtually identical,
so we thought we were good. One place where going through a
trustworthy broker would be nice! Also, we were doing the purchase
from a private owner, long distance, who was hard to get a hold of.
Minor questions often took several days to get ironed out. Negotiate
with the insurance company on coverage and required hours as well if
you are stepping up in aircraft class.

Have the conditions of the purchase and contigencies SPELLED OUT in
your prepurchase agreement. We jumped the gun and sent the owner a
deposit before we actually filled out the agreement, which made
getting money for several prepurchase deficiencies difficult. Despite
some deficiencies that the prepurchase revealed, we decided the plane
was still what we wanted and in our price range. If we had been
willing to walk away, we might have been able to find something for
slightly less money, fewer problems, better equipment, etc..., but we
decided at the time that it was "close enough". We spent 6 months to
get "close enough".

Be prepared to spend some money right after you get your plane. We
found the following on our prebuy:

1. No current weight and balance: $450
2. Fixed display on #2 NAV: $300
3. Corroded overhead speaker wi $100
4. Installed new magnetic compass: $100
5. Pitot-static/transponder check: $180
6. Altimeter failed during #5: $750

Several other problems that we haven't fixed yet, but will need
attention.

For the money we spent, we thought we should be able to get something
closer to perfect, but it wasn't in the cards.

Vic

One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
accident damage.

Our plane had a bad landing accident when it was just a few months out of
the Piper factory, way back in 1974. It was repaired at a Piper service
center, and has never been damaged since.

I'm sure that incident adversely affected the resale price for the first
decade or so after the accident -- but it certainly hasn't had any impact
since.

At the pre-buy my A&P looked at the logs, looked at the plane, said "hmph",
and never mentioned it again.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:50:27 GMT, Jon Kraus
wrote:

I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
experiences. Thanks !!

I had a bad experience. I purchased a complex plane that looked good,
and had a good pre-buy inspection (2 days) by a mechanic I trust. 260
hrs SMOH by a local shop, good compression, decent radios, and the
logs looked good etc, etc. There were a few squawks that were fixed
right away and I thought things were good. Six months after purchase
I took a trip out west and on the way back the #3 jug came loose.
(All the nuts/studs on the bottom of the cylinder were gone.) Landed
in Co (AKO) and had the engine removed and shipped to a local (to me)
shop with a good reputation for repair. Upon tear down the shop
determined that the wrong pistons were installed (O-320 pistons in an
O-360) a bolt at the accessory drive was missing, the nuts on the
cylinder studs were mis-torqued, and other assorted items had not been
properly done at the last overhaul. I opted for a complete overhaul
at that time with all new cylinders/pistons etc. I went out with my
mechanic and we installed the engine and started back east. I did 3-4
circuits well above pattern altitude and turned east. A few minutes
later I experienced an engine over speed, turned around and landed.
The prop shop determined later that the governor had been misassembled
at the last overhaul. This was repaired and the flight home was
uneventful. At the next annual I decided to get the prop and governor
overhauled by a different shop. The prop hub and one blade failed
inspection so I opted for a new 3 blade. At 130 hours after the 2nd
engine overhaul I found metal in the filter, and when the engine was
disassembled #1 cylinder had most of the boss that the wrist pin goes
thru missing on both sides. Further inspection discovered that the
wrist pin had broken right in the center of the con rod. Off came the
engine and it was sent back to the overhaul shop.

So, the unexpected out of pocket cost so far:

Engine overhaul ~$13k
New prop and governor overhaul ~$8k
Governor overhaul and prop
inspection due to metal in the oil $1300
Engine tear down, repair and R&R ~$4.5k estimated

This adds up to over $26,000 on a $52,000 purchase. I have spent
significant $$ on avionics, and preventative maintenance that I have
not included since this money was my decision to spend. In the last
2.5 years there have been less than 200 hours on the plane. It just
is not airworthy very much of the time.

Lessons learned? Well, if I were to do it again I would never buy a
plane that had a field overhauled engine. I would insist on one that
was done by a major shop. A good pre-buy is a must, but don't count
on it finding all that could be wrong. And finally make sure that you
have plenty of $$ in case things go bad.....

j

One thing I would do differently is my logbooks. Take the previous
logbooks and copy them. Put them in the safety deposit box. Now, go to
an office supply store and buy a nice 3 ring binder with plastic
sleeves. Copy enough paper with the words "do not use this side" on
one side. Put the paper in the sleeves. Now, when you have to log
something, the log sticker goes on one sheet of paper. One log sticker
per sheet of paper. Or if the mechanic prefers to write directly on
the paper, fine. But ONE log per sheet! If you want to make an oil
change log, do that on a seperate sheet of paper (not each oil change,
you can put those all on one). Now, the advantage is, if there is a
mistake in the logs, it is fixable. You have one log per sheet.
Perfectly legal with the FAA too. Don't worry about engine logs, prop
logs or aircraft logs, just keep it sequential.

If you sell the plane and the owner objects to this system, you can
carefully cut each log out, and paste it into a traditional logbook.

Do this and you will have pristine logs.

The logbooks to a plane are worth 1/4 the price of the plane. So next
time you take a look at your log books, think $25k.


"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
experiences. Thanks !!

Very few aircraft purchases are likely to be purely bad or purely good.

I'll offer some hindsight-based advice from my own experience:

* Review the logbooks yourself. The mechanic doing the prepurchase
inpection may or may not note all of the interesting details. In my own
case, the prepurchase inspection made no mention of the airplane not being
up-to-date on inspections related to IFR requirements.

* If there are any contingencies, seller-provided add-ons, repairs,
whatever, make sure that the language in your contract is very clear. The
seller likely will take any opportunity to skimp on their obligations, if
the contract offers an opportunity to do so.

* Any inspection on which the sale is contingent must be done by a
disinterested third-party, one of your choosing. A prepurchase is useless
otherwise, and a "legal" annual inspection can be accomplished without
necessarily bringing the airplane up to your standards (I put "legal" in
quotes, because what's legal to the IA may not seem legal to you or me).
Make sure the A&P/IA doing any inspection is very familiar with the type of
aircraft. Talk to type clubs and other owners to find out who the local
"expert" in that type is, to find an appropriate person to do inspections.

* Before making a final agreement to purchase, do a thorough preflight
inspection and complete inflight testing of *everything* on the airplane.
Fly the airplane through a wide range of its envelope, from slow flight to
the top of the yellow arc. Test EVERY piece of avionics equipment
installed; for navigation equipment, reference visual landmarks to ascertain
accuracy. Make sure various entities (ATC, other pilots, Unicom operators)
can receive communications and transponder signals.

Finally, it's probably best to decide ahead of time what course of action
you plan to take should something regarding the sale go wrong. One option
is always legal action against the seller, but in truth that will involve a
huge amount of headache, time, and expense and you may find that stress is
better invested in simply rectifying whatever problem with the airplane that
exists. Of course, it's better to do as much in advance of the sale to
ensure you know what you're getting and that the airplane meets the seller's
claims (if any).

Regardless, you can expect to spend as much as one or two annual inspections
or more getting the airplane up to your standards after purchase. Make sure
you have enough reserve money to cover those expenses. Most airplanes being
sold are being sold because the owner has finally figured out that they can
no longer justify ownership, often after the airplane has been left somewhat
neglected (though usually still airworthy) for some time. Things that might
be acceptable to an owner thinking of getting rid of the airplane anyway
might not be acceptable to a new owner expecting to get a lot of use out of
their newly acquired airplane.

Pete

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:qbMSc.291743$Oq2.266408@attbi_s52...
Fugitaboutit. I suggested that idea before he bought the pathfinder.
It
seemed to make perfect logic to me, but it seemed to pass Jay by.

What, you mus' tink I'm made-a-money?

We just like spending your money!

"I want to upgrade my Warrior"
"Get a new plane"
"But I can modify mine"
"Get a new plane"

"The engine's making metal"
"Buy it, but get a new engine"
etc...

Paul

We just like spending your money!

Hey, now!

I gotta stop listening to you guys...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"