Class E extension

"SB" wrote in message
news:vEVMg.7893$Mz3.7238@fed1read07...

Thanks again guys for your responses on this and Ron for digging into the
FARs but it seems Roy has a point when he says:

"The three actions prohibited by that rule a

* Take off
* Land
* Enter the traffic pattern

It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000"

I think if the tower is going to "own" the E airspace when their class D
is operating under IFR, the FAR should plainly state that and I don't
think it does. Anybody have an opinion on the section from the AIM which
I quoted?


The tower doesn't even "own" the Class D airspace, that belongs to the
TRACON or ARTCC.

Steve,

Thanks for chiming in. Yes I would be in the class E at that altitude.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"SB" wrote in message
news:vEVMg.7893$Mz3.7238@fed1read07...

Thanks again guys for your responses on this and Ron for digging into the
FARs but it seems Roy has a point when he says:

"The three actions prohibited by that rule a

* Take off
* Land
* Enter the traffic pattern

It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000"

I think if the tower is going to "own" the E airspace when their class D
is operating under IFR, the FAR should plainly state that and I don't
think it does. Anybody have an opinion on the section from the AIM which
I quoted?


The tower doesn't even "own" the Class D airspace, that belongs to the
TRACON or ARTCC.

"SB" wrote in message
news:BwYMg.7910$Mz3.397@fed1read07...

Steve,

Thanks for chiming in. Yes I would be in the class E at that altitude.


I think you're answering a question from a different message:



It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000.


Are you in the Class E extension at that altitude?


Would you be in the Class E extension to the Class D surface area if you
were operating 1000 feet above traffic pattern altitude? If the extension
did not exist the floor of controlled airspace would probably be 700 or 1200
AGL, I'd say you're above the Class E extension.

Just in case we are getting away from my original question I will ask it one
more time, maybe in a slightly different way, and then never bother you
guys on this issue again.

One type of Class E airspace is the Extension to a Surface Area. Per
section 3-16 of the AIM..."Such airspace provides controlled airspace to
contain standard instrument approach procedures WITHOUT IMPOSING A
COMMUNICATIONS REQUIREMENT ON PILOTS OPERATING UNDER VFR."

There is a tower in the San Diego area, Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, that is
under the impression that I must contact them, and they can deny my entry
into the Class E extension when their airport Class D area is IMC even
though I can maintain VMC in the Class E. This weather happens often due to
the fact that the airport itself is closer to the ocean and low clouds that
roll in off the water, and the Class E extension is further inland.

I was on the internet last night looking for 2 hours and couldn't find
anything to contradict the section of the AIM which I quoted above.

One more time...aside from opinions, is there anybody that can tell me if
there is a section of the FAR which would prohibit me operating in the Class
E if the associated Class D airport is IMC so long as I can maintain VMC?

Thanks to all.

Scott

If the class D airport is IMC and thus requires approaches, would it
not stand to reason that they also need their associated class E
surface area under positive control for the aircraft which are
approaching to land?

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:23:43 -0700, "SB" wrote:

Just in case we are getting away from my original question I will ask it one
more time, maybe in a slightly different way, and then never bother you
guys on this issue again.

One type of Class E airspace is the Extension to a Surface Area. Per
section 3-16 of the AIM..."Such airspace provides controlled airspace to
contain standard instrument approach procedures WITHOUT IMPOSING A
COMMUNICATIONS REQUIREMENT ON PILOTS OPERATING UNDER VFR."

There is a tower in the San Diego area, Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, that is
under the impression that I must contact them, and they can deny my entry
into the Class E extension when their airport Class D area is IMC even
though I can maintain VMC in the Class E. This weather happens often due to
the fact that the airport itself is closer to the ocean and low clouds that
roll in off the water, and the Class E extension is further inland.

I was on the internet last night looking for 2 hours and couldn't find
anything to contradict the section of the AIM which I quoted above.

One more time...aside from opinions, is there anybody that can tell me if
there is a section of the FAR which would prohibit me operating in the Class
E if the associated Class D airport is IMC so long as I can maintain VMC?

Thanks to all.

Scott

Peter,

I see where you are coming from but that doesn't address the question.

"Is there is a section of the FAR which would prohibit me operating in the
Class
E if the associated Class D airport is IMC so long as I can maintain VMC?"

Here's a section right off an FAA website:
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIR/air1401.html

(e). CLASS E AIRSPACE AREA. Generally, if the airspace is not Class A, Class
B, Class C, or Class D, and it is controlled airspace, it is Class E
airspace. The types of Class E airspace areas a

(1). Surface Area Designated for an Airport - When designated as a surface
area for an airport, the airspace will be configured to contain all
instrument procedures.

(2). Extension to a Surface Area - There are Class E airspace areas that
serve as extensions to Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E surface areas
designated for an airport. Such airspace provides controlled airspace to
contain standard instrument approach procedures without imposing a
communications requirement on pilots operating under VFR.



If I can maintain VMC in a particular area, so should any other aircraft VFR
or IFR in the same area. Therefore, see and avoid will still apply and the
IFR aircraft in the Class E extension may be receiving radar traffic
advisories in the controlled airspace and be using see and avoid doctrine in
the VMC Class E Surface area just like any aircraft nearby operating VFR in
VMC.

I have not seen anything written, other than individual opinions, nothing
official, that says there is any type of communications requirement in a
Class E Surface area for aircraft operating under VFR. If anybody knows of
anything, that it what I am looking for.

Tks,

Scott




"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
If the class D airport is IMC and thus requires approaches, would it
not stand to reason that they also need their associated class E
surface area under positive control for the aircraft which are
approaching to land?

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:23:43 -0700, "SB" wrote:

Just in case we are getting away from my original question I will ask it
one
more time, maybe in a slightly different way, and then never bother you
guys on this issue again.

One type of Class E airspace is the Extension to a Surface Area. Per
section 3-16 of the AIM..."Such airspace provides controlled airspace to
contain standard instrument approach procedures WITHOUT IMPOSING A
COMMUNICATIONS REQUIREMENT ON PILOTS OPERATING UNDER VFR."

There is a tower in the San Diego area, Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, that
is
under the impression that I must contact them, and they can deny my entry
into the Class E extension when their airport Class D area is IMC even
though I can maintain VMC in the Class E. This weather happens often due
to
the fact that the airport itself is closer to the ocean and low clouds
that
roll in off the water, and the Class E extension is further inland.

I was on the internet last night looking for 2 hours and couldn't find
anything to contradict the section of the AIM which I quoted above.

One more time...aside from opinions, is there anybody that can tell me if
there is a section of the FAR which would prohibit me operating in the
Class
E if the associated Class D airport is IMC so long as I can maintain VMC?

Thanks to all.

Scott

Peter Clark wrote:
If the class D airport is IMC and thus requires approaches, would it
not stand to reason that they also need their associated class E
surface area under positive control for the aircraft which are
approaching to land?

No.

Take a look at some place like CDW. It's got a CESA that runs about 18
miles from the airport, "protecting" the NDB-22 approach. I can't for the
life of me figure out how it gives aircraft on the approach any protection.

The minimum altitude outside of the FAF is 2000 MSL (approx 1800 AGL). How
does extending the floor of the CEAS from 700 AGL down to the surface
provide any protection for aircraft no lower than 1800 AGL or so?

It's even stranger than that. The procedure turn is noted "Remain within
10 NM". As far as I can measure on the sectional, the outer edge of the
CESA is 8 NM from the FAF. So what happens in the last 2 NM?