Rotation

"buttman" wrote in message

Anyways, whats with the trend around here amongst the "regulars" to be
so condescending when dealing with people of lesser knowledge? It's as
if these people are so desperate to show off their vast knowledge of
aviation, they'll resort to things like name-calling and sarcasm (the
easy way) before trying to explain their point of view intelligently
and reasonably (the hard way)...

The problem was that the ms person tried to act as though he had ALL of the
answers, and when he was presented with fact, or was asked to back up his
position, he back pedaled, but would not admit fault.

It is one thing to come here with questions, and a desire to learn. It is
another thing to come here with the assumption that all of the others have
something to learn from you.

In other words, fools are not suffered easily. He acted as a fool would.
--
Jim in NC

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in news:1157992218.361147.166330
@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Snipola
Mike,
I think trim is just academic is MSFS because there is no control
feedback. The OP is probably setting the elevator with too much back
pressure but doesn't know it because he doesn't have the feedback.
Honestly, if you asked me what position the yoke is in on take off, I
probably couldn't tell you. In real life we expect the yoke to go to
its trim position, something that doesn't make sense in a simulator
that does not have feedback controls.
-Roebrt

I have a force feedback stick and if I don't trim right for
the phase of flight I'm in I have to provide excessive input
to maintain flight attitude. As I adjust the trim the feedback
moves the stick. Trim buttons are on my stick. I can press
them while lightly holding the stick and feel the stick move.
I know I am in trim when the stick is centered and I have a
feather touch on the stick.

When properly trimmed I can let go of the stick and maintain
flight attitude for 10's of seconds. I can even conrol climb
and descent with power adjustment without ever touching the
elevator. Or sometimes I maintain altitude with single clicks
of trim.

Before I got the force feedback stick, trim didn't make sense
since you couldn't feel it in the controls.

The hundred bucks I spent on mine were well worth the enhanced
simulation experience. Flight is much smoother and landings
are greased much more often.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

In both of the airplanes that I fly, I need to trim nose down after liftoff
as the speed increases.

You can see the same thing in a paper airplane. Make an airplane that will
glide well, neither pitching down into a dive nor doing a series of
pitch-ups and stalls. Then thow it hard. The harder you throw it the more
it wants to pitch up.

MSFS may or may not closely represent an actual B58 but the principle is
correct. Whether neutral is the correct position for takeoff depends on CG.
Jet aircraft have a trim position chard where the correct takeoff setting is
given for a given CG location. On a twin where the props are blowing air
across the wing and tail it also depends on how much power the engines are
producing which is affected by altitude, temperature and mixture setting.

Mike
MU-2


"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport writes:

Depends on where you have the trim set which is always a compromise. If
the
trim is set so that there is no nose down trimming required after
takeoff,
then it will take quite a bit of pull to get the aircraft to rotate and
in
the initial climb. If the aircraft is trimmed so that only a moderate
amount of force is required to rotate then it will require pushing on the
yoke and retrimming after takeoff as the airplane accelerates.

The trim setting is correct for one speed and configuration (power and
flap)
and since the airplane is accelerating, the trim is going to need to be
changed.

I've been leaving the trim neutral. Rotation is sluggish up to a
certain speed, then the plane pitches up rapidly if I try to rotate
beyond that speed. Thereafter, I must push on the stick to keep the
pitch angle within reason.

I take it that I should trim to hold the nose down a bit?

It just surprises me that the plane pitches up so quickly
(particularly the Baron 58). If I know it's going to do this, I can
adjust the stick as soon as the nose rises, but I was wondering if the
real aircraft would behave in the same way. I don't see small planes
taking off like that when I observe them from a distance.

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Skywise writes:

Before I got the force feedback stick, trim didn't make sense
since you couldn't feel it in the controls.

The hundred bucks I spent on mine were well worth the enhanced
simulation experience. Flight is much smoother and landings
are greased much more often.

What brand and model of stick was this? And has it been reliable?

--
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Mike Rapoport writes:

In both of the airplanes that I fly, I need to trim nose down after liftoff
as the speed increases.

You can see the same thing in a paper airplane. Make an airplane that will
glide well, neither pitching down into a dive nor doing a series of
pitch-ups and stalls. Then thow it hard. The harder you throw it the more
it wants to pitch up.

MSFS may or may not closely represent an actual B58 but the principle is
correct. Whether neutral is the correct position for takeoff depends on CG.
Jet aircraft have a trim position chard where the correct takeoff setting is
given for a given CG location. On a twin where the props are blowing air
across the wing and tail it also depends on how much power the engines are
producing which is affected by altitude, temperature and mixture setting.

Unfortunately MSFS doesn't seem to provide much documentation on how
to set the trim for each aircraft and situation (or I haven't found
it). I guess I'll have to experiment. Fortunately trial and error is
not dangerous in a sim.

--
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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport writes:

In both of the airplanes that I fly, I need to trim nose down after
liftoff
as the speed increases.

You can see the same thing in a paper airplane. Make an airplane that
will
glide well, neither pitching down into a dive nor doing a series of
pitch-ups and stalls. Then thow it hard. The harder you throw it the
more
it wants to pitch up.

MSFS may or may not closely represent an actual B58 but the principle is
correct. Whether neutral is the correct position for takeoff depends on
CG.
Jet aircraft have a trim position chard where the correct takeoff setting
is
given for a given CG location. On a twin where the props are blowing
air
across the wing and tail it also depends on how much power the engines
are
producing which is affected by altitude, temperature and mixture setting.

Unfortunately MSFS doesn't seem to provide much documentation on how
to set the trim for each aircraft and situation (or I haven't found
it). I guess I'll have to experiment. Fortunately trial and error is
not dangerous in a sim.

That's because unless there is a specific marking (as there is for takeoff
on the C172 both in RL and in FS9), there is no such thing as a specific way
to set the trim for each situation.

Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control pressures and you
can't see pressure, you can only feel it.

(I will conceed you can trim for straight and level because you can visually
confirm that the VSI and ALT are steady for a given power setting.)

Jay B

Mxsmanic,

What brand and model of stick was this?


Oh? All of a sudden we have the money, eh?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Skywise,

The hundred bucks I spent on mine were well worth the enhanced
simulation experience


100 $??? You must be part of the idle rich. Mxsmanic isn't.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jay Beckman wrote
Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control pressures and
you can't see pressure, you can only feel it.

Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the horizontal
stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no feel
feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
airplane attitude remains where desired.

Bob Moore

Jay Beckman writes:

That's because unless there is a specific marking (as there is for takeoff
on the C172 both in RL and in FS9), there is no such thing as a specific way
to set the trim for each situation.

Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control pressures and you
can't see pressure, you can only feel it.

But if you have an unusual load aboard, it would seem that you
wouldn't be able to feel it until you're already in the air. Unless
you mean that you'd be able to extrapolate from previous experience
with other loads.

I will conceed you can trim for straight and level because you can visually
confirm that the VSI and ALT are steady for a given power setting.

I'd just like to be able to rotate more smoothly. I had to modify the
contact points on the 737 just because I was plowing the tail into the
runway on take-off (and the standard model doesn't take any note of
this, which meant I was cheating for a long time and didn't realize
it). The B58 pitches upward even more quickly. I think if I can get
good at putting the stick forward in just the right way as the nose
rises I will be able to rotate smoothly, eventually, but I will try
the trim stuff.

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