Rotation

"Jose" wrote in message
.. .
You are both describing the same action, Bob should have just said
"release the yoke" if the nose stays where you want it you are trimmed.
: )

Well, that's not the way I read the original post that raised my question,
and prompted Jay Beckman's comment that there is a lot that makes no sense
to me:

[Jay Beckman:] Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control
pressures and
you can't see pressure, you can only feel it.

[Bob Moo] Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the
horizontal stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no
feel
feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
airplane attitude remains where desired.

From this I gather that there is no difference in pressure on the yoke
when you are trimmed vs untrimmed. "One must release the pressure and
see..." Is the pressure so light that one flies much like a
non-force-feedback simulator? This would be very weird for me. I'm used
to flying real airplanes, not giant tubes with wings on them.

Jose

I got the impression from Bob's post that, in the case he describes, you are
(effectively) always trimmed.

IOW, it will stay nose up, nose down, right where it is ... but you have to
do some trial and error tweaking to ensure sure you are trimmed for the
attitude you *want* ...

Am I close, Bob?

Jay B

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
news:zCCNg.19690$RD.5087@fed1read08...

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Mxsmanic wrote:

Also ... why does a plane like the Baron 58 have a stick pusher?

It doesn't, unless you are referring to the interface between the yoke
and
the seat cusion.

--
Peter

Izzat the same device as the "nut holding the yoke?"

g d r

Jay B

Yokenut - I like that

"Jose" wrote in message
.. .
You are both describing the same action, Bob should have just said
"release the yoke" if the nose stays where you want it you are trimmed.
: )

Well, that's not the way I read the original post that raised my question,
and prompted Jay Beckman's comment that there is a lot that makes no sense
to me:

[Jay Beckman:] Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control
pressures and
you can't see pressure, you can only feel it.

[Bob Moo] Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the
horizontal stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no
feel
feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
airplane attitude remains where desired.

From this I gather that there is no difference in pressure on the yoke
when you are trimmed vs untrimmed. "One must release the pressure and
see..." Is the pressure so light that one flies much like a
non-force-feedback simulator? This would be very weird for me. I'm used
to flying real airplanes, not giant tubes with wings on them.

Jose

I have flown C182 with the horizontal stabilizer trim and with the elevator
trim. Both felt the same to me. I have also flown a Lear 35 with
horizontal stabilizer trim. It felt the same as the C182 in regards to trim
inputs.

Hi Bob,

Just curious: do the old-school Boeings not have Artificial Feel Units?

--
Michael Nouak
remove "nospamfor" to reply:



"Bob Moore" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. 122...
karl gruber wrote
Bob,
Can you explain that a little further? I don't see any difference in
feel feedback between a Cessna 182 (trim tab) and 185 (stab trim). Why
should there be a difference?

Karl, I have no experience with in the smaller a/c, but as a Boeing
instructor (B-707, B-727), it took a good amount of time to teach a
new jet pilot how to trim because of this effect.

If from level flight, you want to raise the nose for a climb, you
pull back and obviously feel the back pressure from the elevator
being displaced relative to the stabilizer, at this point, trimming
just changes the stabilizer position without putting the elevator
in a new position relative to the stabilizer and releiving the
pressure.

Large trim changes (as in a go-around) consisted of a large number of
trim/release cycles in order to find the exact amount required.

Bob Moore

Do you have Autotrim in your Bo?



"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Bob Moore wrote:

Actually, on the older Boeings that I flew, the pilot could do a
better job of trimming than the autopilot since the autopilot did
not mind holding a little pressure forever

That is true of the S-Tec 60-2 autopilot in my Bonanza, too. At the top
of
climb and upon selecting the ALT hold as the aircraft's speed increases,
the AP will keep the aircraft level all while fighting a slight nose up
trim. Disengage the AP and the aircraft will immediately nose up a few
degrees if the pilot is unprepared (i.e. improper pressure in the yoke).

I have learned to first allow the aircraft's speed to stabilize and then
disengage the AP to manually retrim for level flight before re-engaging
the
AP. Having all that tension in the system just doesn't seem right to me.

--
Peter

Michael Nouak wrote
Just curious: do the old-school Boeings not have Artificial Feel Units?

On the hydraulicly powered rudder...yes, cable operated aileron servo
tabs...No, Cable operated elevator servo tabs.....No.

Bob

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

I wonder why smaller planes don't do this.

Some do, Mooney, Cessna 180, 185 early 182

Also ... why does a plane like the Baron 58 have a stick pusher? I

Barons do not have a stick pusher.

How do all these calculations get done?

Charts, graphs, calculators

Jay Beckman wrote:

Izzat the same device as the "nut holding the yoke?"

'xactly...

--
Peter

Bill Denton wrote:

Do you have Autotrim in your Bo?

Yes.

--
Peter

From the Sys 60-2 POH:

"If the autopilot is equipped with optional Autotrim, the aircraft elevator
trim will be maintained automatically when the Trim Master Switch is ON
and a pitch mode is activated.
When the Trim Master Switch is ON, the trim annunciators are disabled.
If the switch is OFF, or a power failure occurs, the annunciators
automatically become functional."

Does it not function this way?




"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Bill Denton wrote:

Do you have Autotrim in your Bo?

Yes.

--
Peter