Common instruments on small aircraft

Wade Hasbrouck wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote
If you have understanding passengers, fine. If they are going to a
wedding or job interview, though, this is a serious problem.

Again you are inferring that the Private Pilot can ignore FAR Part 91 and
FAR 61.113 when they want to help out friends. If a friend comes to me and
says "I have a wedding or job interview to go to, could you fly me there?",
this would most likely be considered a violation of 61.113, and would be
illegal for a Private Pilot to do.

That's absurd. Someone asking to be flown somewhere is in no way a
violation of the FARs. If it were, most GA pilots would be in violation
almost every time they fly.

Case in point - you said in a previous post:

" I had a coworker who wanted to go have lunch at PWT (Bremerton
National) on a Saturday morning."

So by your own interpretation, *you* are in violation of FAR 61.113.

In order for a violation to occur, there has to be compensation (which
may or may not be monetary) which the above situations, as described,
do not include.



Not at all. You could have commitments to friends or relatives to
transport them here or there, with no money involved.

FAA could still consider this as flying for compensation, which is
prohibited under Part 91 and FAR 61.113. FAA has said that compensation
doesn't have to be monetary in nature to violate FAR 61.113.

Again - in his scenario, no compensation is described, so it is
perfectly legal. The word "commitment" does not inherently imply
compensation. A commitment is merely an obligation to an agreement.

"Bart" wrote in message
oups.com...

SNIP

That's absurd. Someone asking to be flown somewhere is in no way a
violation of the FARs. If it were, most GA pilots would be in violation
almost every time they fly.

Case in point - you said in a previous post:

" I had a coworker who wanted to go have lunch at PWT (Bremerton
National) on a Saturday morning."

So by your own interpretation, *you* are in violation of FAR 61.113.

In order for a violation to occur, there has to be compensation (which
may or may not be monetary) which the above situations, as described,
do not include.

I may be confusing this type of situation with a different scenario, but,
IIRC, you also have to be able to prove a "commonality" for making the
flight. Just being amenable to giving a buddy a lift somewhere because *he*
wants to go there is not enough if YOU don't really have a reason to go
there beyond helping your buddy. You have to have a reason to go too.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

"Bart" wrote in
oups.com:

Wade Hasbrouck wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote
If you have understanding passengers, fine. If they are going to a
wedding or job interview, though, this is a serious problem.

Again you are inferring that the Private Pilot can ignore FAR Part 91
and FAR 61.113 when they want to help out friends. If a friend comes
to me and says "I have a wedding or job interview to go to, could you
fly me there?", this would most likely be considered a violation of
61.113, and would be illegal for a Private Pilot to do.

That's absurd. Someone asking to be flown somewhere is in no way a
violation of the FARs. If it were, most GA pilots would be in
violation almost every time they fly.

Case in point - you said in a previous post:

" I had a coworker who wanted to go have lunch at PWT (Bremerton
National) on a Saturday morning."

So by your own interpretation, *you* are in violation of FAR 61.113.

In order for a violation to occur, there has to be compensation
(which
may or may not be monetary) which the above situations, as described,
do not include.



Not at all. You could have commitments to friends or relatives to
transport them here or there, with no money involved.

FAA could still consider this as flying for compensation, which is
prohibited under Part 91 and FAR 61.113. FAA has said that
compensation doesn't have to be monetary in nature to violate FAR
61.113.

Again - in his scenario, no compensation is described, so it is
perfectly legal. The word "commitment" does not inherently imply
compensation. A commitment is merely an obligation to an agreement.


The FAA has ruled in the past that the ability to log the flight time
(whether or not you actually do so) is in and of itself compensation.

If your friend invites you to attend the wedding, then there is no
problem, as you have a common purpose for the trip where the air
transportation is incidental. But if you are only flying to transport your
friend to the wedding and you have no other purpose in going on the flight,
then you are in violation.

There are some exceptions for private pilots as specified either in
the FARs or by FAA policy specified in the Air Transportation Operations
Inspector's Handbook, Order 8400.10. The ones I'm aware of are FAR 91.321
regarding the carriage of candidates in elections or the policy stated in
8400.10 section 1345 for "Life Flights" (like Angel Flight) where a private
pilot is allowed to take a tax deduction and inspectors are specifically
instructed not to treat this tax deductibility of costs as constituting
"compensation for hire".

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Marty Shapiro wrote:
"Bart" wrote:
The FAA has ruled in the past that the ability to log the flight time
(whether or not you actually do so) is in and of itself compensation.

If your friend invites you to attend the wedding, then there is no
problem, as you have a common purpose for the trip where the air
transportation is incidental. But if you are only flying to transport your
friend to the wedding and you have no other purpose in going on the flight,
then you are in violation.

As long as the pilot pays for the entire cost of operating the aircraft
(ie - no pro rata sharing of expenses), it is legal.

Logging flight time is considered compensation on flights where there
is sharing of expenses. The added "compensation" to the pilot (beyond
the sharing of expenses) of being able to log flight time violates the
pro rata.

"Bart" wrote in message
oups.com...
Wade Hasbrouck wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote
If you have understanding passengers, fine. If they are going to a
wedding or job interview, though, this is a serious problem.

Again you are inferring that the Private Pilot can ignore FAR Part 91 and
FAR 61.113 when they want to help out friends. If a friend comes to me
and
says "I have a wedding or job interview to go to, could you fly me
there?",
this would most likely be considered a violation of 61.113, and would be
illegal for a Private Pilot to do.

That's absurd. Someone asking to be flown somewhere is in no way a
violation of the FARs. If it were, most GA pilots would be in violation
almost every time they fly.

Case in point - you said in a previous post:

" I had a coworker who wanted to go have lunch at PWT (Bremerton
National) on a Saturday morning."

So by your own interpretation, *you* are in violation of FAR 61.113.

No I am not...

Amongst my coworkers, it is no secret that I am now a Private Pilot. It is
also no secret to them that I enjoy going to PWT for Fish and Chips, as I
have told them on many occasions that I think they are some of the best
around. So, when said coworker said he wanted to go to PWT for lunch, it is
not a violation of FAR 61.113, because I was wanting to go there for lunch
as well...


In order for a violation to occur, there has to be compensation (which
may or may not be monetary) which the above situations, as described,
do not include.


FAA says that "compensation" may not always be tangible, which is more of
what my point was getting at... Respect and regard gained from doing a
favor for someone, especially someone like a direct manager, can be
considered compensation.

i.e. if my manager had asked me to fly fly him to Portland to pick up the
car he bought in Portland off of E-Bay, and even though I pay for the entire
flight, that is a violation of FAR 61.113. Same thing can be said of
friends asking you to basically be a basic "taxi service" for them by taking
them to job interviews or weddings or what ever event, if you don't have any
other reason for the flight, it is my opinion you are asking for trouble
from the FAA. And even if you did have a reason for the flight, you might
get some uncessary attention from the FAA.



Not at all. You could have commitments to friends or relatives to
transport them here or there, with no money involved.

FAA could still consider this as flying for compensation, which is
prohibited under Part 91 and FAR 61.113. FAA has said that compensation
doesn't have to be monetary in nature to violate FAR 61.113.

Again - in his scenario, no compensation is described, so it is
perfectly legal. The word "commitment" does not inherently imply
compensation. A commitment is merely an obligation to an agreement.

Compensation doesn't have to be "described" in the commitment/agreement to
get you trouble with the FAA. If you are agreeing to transport friends
around, while you aren't receiving anything tangible, the respect they will
have for you and regard that they will hold for you is considered to be
compensation by the FAA, and is a violation of FAR 61.113. As a private
pilot, I am not a taxi service for my friends.

Private Pilots have to be very concious of "why" they are flying, and if I
ask myself before every flight that I take passengers on "Why are we
flying?", and if the answer doesn't involve me in some way, (other than I am
their mode of transportion) i.e. I don't have a real reason myself for doing
the flight, then I am probably asking for trouble from the FAA, and while it
may be tough, I probably should say "no." to the friend and the flight.

If you are "committing to friends and family to transport them", and that is
the only reason for the flight, you are now an "air taxi". Just because I
have a Private Pilot Certificate doesn't mean I can be a "taxi service" for
my friends and family and transport them around where ever they want to go
when they want to go.

Bart wrote:
As for GA, I've been trying to make a trip for two weeks now, but
haven't been able due to weather. If I had needed to, I could have made
the trip in a car and been back home the same day two weeks ago. I put
it off because I'm using it as an excuse to fly - which I believe is
what most GA pilots probably do.

To make my point even further, I just recieved an email from a member
of my flying club that battery in our plane is dead.

If this were a car it would be no big deal since I could go to an auto
parts store and replace the battery myself. But since we need a
licensed A&P mechanic to do the job, and there's not exactly one on
every corner, we'll have to wait in line to get the job done.

There's your 'ole reliable GA!

Flight rescheduled.... *again*.

Wade Hasbrouck wrote:
Amongst my coworkers, it is no secret that I am now a Private Pilot. It is
also no secret to them that I enjoy going to PWT for Fish and Chips, as I
have told them on many occasions that I think they are some of the best
around. So, when said coworker said he wanted to go to PWT for lunch, it is
not a violation of FAR 61.113, because I was wanting to go there for lunch
as well...

But can you *prove* that you were wanting to go there for also?


In order for a violation to occur, there has to be compensation (which
may or may not be monetary) which the above situations, as described,
do not include.


FAA says that "compensation" may not always be tangible, which is more of
what my point was getting at... Respect and regard gained from doing a
favor for someone, especially someone like a direct manager, can be
considered compensation.

That's quite a stretch. Show me the precedent for the FAA considering
respect to considered compensation. How would one prove having gained
respect?


If you are "committing to friends and family to transport them", and that is
the only reason for the flight, you are now an "air taxi". Just because I
have a Private Pilot Certificate doesn't mean I can be a "taxi service" for
my friends and family and transport them around where ever they want to go
when they want to go.

Not true. You can be a taxi service all you want - just as long as you
are not being compensated for it.

On 29 Oct 2006 00:00:05 -0700, "Bart" wrote:

Bart wrote:
As for GA, I've been trying to make a trip for two weeks now, but
haven't been able due to weather. If I had needed to, I could have made
the trip in a car and been back home the same day two weeks ago. I put
it off because I'm using it as an excuse to fly - which I believe is
what most GA pilots probably do.

To make my point even further, I just recieved an email from a member
of my flying club that battery in our plane is dead.

If this were a car it would be no big deal since I could go to an auto
parts store and replace the battery myself. But since we need a
licensed A&P mechanic to do the job, and there's not exactly one on
every corner, we'll have to wait in line to get the job done.

The pilot or operator of a Part 91 aircraft can replace the aircraft
batteries...you don't need an A&P. Read 14CFR 43.3(g) and Appendix A (c).

Ron Wanttaja

"Bart" wrote in
ups.com:

Marty Shapiro wrote:
"Bart" wrote:
The FAA has ruled in the past that the ability to log the
flight time
(whether or not you actually do so) is in and of itself compensation.

If your friend invites you to attend the wedding, then there
is no
problem, as you have a common purpose for the trip where the air
transportation is incidental. But if you are only flying to
transport your friend to the wedding and you have no other purpose in
going on the flight, then you are in violation.

As long as the pilot pays for the entire cost of operating the
aircraft (ie - no pro rata sharing of expenses), it is legal.

Logging flight time is considered compensation on flights where there
is sharing of expenses. The added "compensation" to the pilot (beyond
the sharing of expenses) of being able to log flight time violates the
pro rata.



Inspector's for at least 2 FSDO's that I'm aware of say otherwise.
They were very clear in different Wings safety seminars that providing air
transportation for a friend is NOT permitted for a private pilot. One even
stated that the FAA added the definition of logging time as compensation
for this exact case, where the pilot does not charge at all. They
empasized that unless you were going to make the trip regardless of whether
or not your friend was going along, you would be violating the FARs.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Bart writes:

To make my point even further, I just recieved an email from a member
of my flying club that battery in our plane is dead.

If this were a car it would be no big deal since I could go to an auto
parts store and replace the battery myself. But since we need a
licensed A&P mechanic to do the job, and there's not exactly one on
every corner, we'll have to wait in line to get the job done.

There's your 'ole reliable GA!

Flight rescheduled.... *again*.

Safety isn't free. And you need lots of safety in an environment as
unforgiving as the skies. But it is true that this is part of what
makes GA impractical for any type of regular transportation.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.