Cost of operating a Skyhawk

jay somerset wrote:

I am really surprised that an aircraft owner/pilot does not how much
his operating costs are.

Why? I don't know what mine are. I don't want to know.

If I were in business with the plane, it would be a different matter.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

I am really surprised that an aircraft owner/pilot does not how much
his operating costs are. That is just about fundamental for an
owner/pilot.

Well, before I posted that request, I had asked several Cessna owners
I know, and not one of them could tell me what it cost.

We knew what our Warrior cost because there were four of us and we had
to know what to charge ourselves.

vince norris

jay somerset wrote:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:30:53 -0400, vincent p. norris
wrote:


Thanks to all who went to the trouble of writing thoughtful replies. I
tried to be brief, so I didn't explain that I'm not planning to buy a
Skyhawk ( perhaps I should have).

I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs. He said he
had no idea what his hourly cost is, but you guys gave me a pretty
good range of estimates.

vince norris


I am really surprised that an aircraft owner/pilot does not how much
his operating costs are. That is just about fundamental for an
owner/pilot.

To what degree of accuracy? I know the total dollars I will spend per
year to within a thousand or two. But I have no idea what it costs per
hour. That's not even an important number.

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
...
I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs.
...
vince norris

Why shouldn't you pay for half the total costs? If your friend hadn't
invested in the aircraft then you would have to rent one. The rental will
include half the total costs plus some markup for the owner. How is it fair
that you should only pay for fuel direct cost?

--
Jim Carter
"Jim Carter" wrote in message
. com...
"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
...
I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs.
...
vince norris

Why shouldn't you pay for half the total costs? If your friend hadn't
invested in the aircraft then you would have to rent one. The rental will
include half the total costs plus some markup for the owner. How is it
fair
that you should only pay for fuel direct cost?

That last sentence should read "How is it fair that you should only pay for
direct (variable) costs?"

Jim Carter wrote:
"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
...
I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs.
...
vince norris

Why shouldn't you pay for half the total costs? If your friend hadn't
invested in the aircraft then you would have to rent one. The rental will
include half the total costs plus some markup for the owner. How is it fair
that you should only pay for fuel direct cost?

If the friend is a US pilot, there are the restrictions of 14 CFR 61.113
about reimbursement.

If you want to concider it a rental, then all the requirements like 100hr
inspections apply.

In any case, if I were to share an auto trip with someone, I wouldn't
expect them to pay a share of my annual insurance or prorated cost of
new tires.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

wrote in message
...
Jim Carter wrote:
...
If the friend is a US pilot, there are the restrictions of 14 CFR 61.113
about reimbursement.


The restrictions prohibit the pilot (friend) from making a profit, they do
not restrict the owner from recovering a pro-rata percentage of the
operating cost of the aircraft. I believe the total costs would be
considered operating costs because if the owner didn't invest in the
aircraft to start with how could it be operated at all?

If you want to concider it a rental, then all the requirements like 100hr
inspections apply.


Right. That's part of my point when I mentioned renting costing more than
just direct costs, however I suppose a 100 hour would be an additional
direct cost with which the private owner wouldn't have to deal.

In any case, if I were to share an auto trip with someone, I wouldn't
expect them to pay a share of my annual insurance or prorated cost of
new tires.

--
Jim Pennino


Why not Jim? How is it fair that the owner pay for items from which the
passenger benefits? I have to admit that I don't charge passengers to ride
with me in the car as long as I have to go anyway, but that's my choice. The
fair thing is to split all costs evenly and that should be assumed by any
passenger in any vehicle. If the owner/operator wants to be more gratious
then that's their choice, not the passengers.

Mr. Norris was the passenger on this trip, and it was he who had written
that he wouldn't pay anything except direct costs. I think that is the
morally wrong position for him to take.

Why shouldn't you pay for half the total costs?

Well, for one reason, people who rode with me in my airplane, over the
past 30 years, on trips to Alaska and other places, shared operating
costs, not hangar rent, insurance, or opportunity cost on my
ivestment. (I also didn't ask them to pay half the cost of my
aviation medical exam! Or half the cost of getting my licence, 50-some
years ago! How about that!!! Am I generous, or what???)

For another reason, that's what the FAA appoves, if I read the FARs
correctly.

If your friend hadn't invested in the aircraft then you would have to rent one.

And if I hadn't agreed to fly with him, he would have had to pay the
full operating cost of the trip, instead of only half of it.

How is it fair that you should only pay for fuel direct cost?

You should read posts carefully before replying. I explicitly said
that I would pay half of full operating costs, not "fuel only."

vince norris

Jim Carter wrote:
wrote in message
...
Jim Carter wrote:
...
If the friend is a US pilot, there are the restrictions of 14 CFR 61.113
about reimbursement.


The restrictions prohibit the pilot (friend) from making a profit, they do
not restrict the owner from recovering a pro-rata percentage of the
operating cost of the aircraft. I believe the total costs would be
considered operating costs because if the owner didn't invest in the
aircraft to start with how could it be operated at all?

And you would be wrong.

From 14 CFR 61.113 (c)

....provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expeditures, or
rental fees.

As a US private pilot, you can't "share" the cost of such things as engine
overhauls, home based tie down fees, insurance, normal maintenance, etc.


If you want to concider it a rental, then all the requirements like 100hr
inspections apply.


Right. That's part of my point when I mentioned renting costing more than
just direct costs, however I suppose a 100 hour would be an additional
direct cost with which the private owner wouldn't have to deal.

As a US operation, you can't charge for anything other than a prorated
share of the expenses noted above and be operating under 14 CFR 61.


In any case, if I were to share an auto trip with someone, I wouldn't
expect them to pay a share of my annual insurance or prorated cost of
new tires.

--
Jim Pennino


Why not Jim? How is it fair that the owner pay for items from which the
passenger benefits? I have to admit that I don't charge passengers to ride
with me in the car as long as I have to go anyway, but that's my choice. The
fair thing is to split all costs evenly and that should be assumed by any
passenger in any vehicle. If the owner/operator wants to be more gratious
then that's their choice, not the passengers.

Mr. Norris was the passenger on this trip, and it was he who had written
that he wouldn't pay anything except direct costs. I think that is the
morally wrong position for him to take.

The bottom line is under US regs you can't legally do this under 14 CFR 61.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

That last sentence should read "How is it fair that you should only pay for
direct (variable) costs?"

Too late. I already responded to your original message.