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Kerry didn't join the National Guard to avoid combat.



 
 
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  #31  
Old September 7th 04, 04:07 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:40:24 -0600, Jack wrote:

Random drug testing of the entire force and mandatory drug testing in
conjunction with flight physicals, at both CONUS and overseas bases,
was implemented in April, 1972. Not as command prerogative, but by
Air Force directive following DoD guidance. George W. Bush was
filling a flying slot until failing to appear for his annual flight
physical in August, 1972. And yes, I have done the research, thank
you...I was also there at the time.

Jack, U.S. Air Force, Retired


Then, Jack, you also know that random drug testing was not done in
conjunction with a flight physical. That wouldn't have been effective
at all, since the flight physical was a scheduled event (at the
discretion of the individual during the 90 day window before his
birthday), and therefore easy to beat by abstaining from drugs for a
week beforehand. (The discrimination of the drug test in those days
was nowhere near what it is today.)

Let's also note that the physical in '72 was more than four years
after George W. Bush entered USAF pilot training, was at a time when
his unit mission had changed from operational to qualification
training and in which he was not going to be transitioned to the F-101
or upgraded to IP in the Deuce since he did not have sufficient
retainability.

You'll also recall that officers in non-flying billets got a physical
every three years rather than an annual flight physical and if you
weren't on flying status you could let your physical lapse and an
aeronautical order (routine) would be issued to remove you from
status.

I've done the research as well as being in the business. In April of
'72 I was at Luke checking out in the F-4C and in August of '72 I was
at Korat flying into NVN daily. Where were you at that time? (Since
you brought it up.)



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org
  #32  
Old September 7th 04, 04:13 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
wrote:

In article ,
Jack wrote:

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.



Jack, at least learn to spell champagne. It will lend credibility to
your other ravings.

A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.

You keep forgetting that...


No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
500 hours in the aircraft.


Wrong on two counts. First, F-102s did not fly recce--EVER. They were
interceptors flying air defense alert. And second, the 500 hour
requirement was not for Vietnam deployment but for Palace Alert. Lots
of folks went to SEA with a lot less hours in their system even when
"minimum" requirements were higher.

George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.


And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.

He did not take a flight physical when he would not be performing
flight duties during the last several months of his ANG tenure when
the force was being reduced in all units as SEA was coming to a
conclusion.

And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org
  #33  
Old September 7th 04, 05:04 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Jack" wrote in message
...

No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
500 hours in the aircraft.


F-102 jocks didn't fly recce anywhere.


  #34  
Old September 7th 04, 06:20 PM
George Z. Bush
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"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
wrote:

In article ,
Jack wrote:


George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.


And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.


Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
waived wasn't waived in his case?

(Snip)

And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?


Who? Me? I was enjoying retired life in North Carolina, having already done my
bit during three wars. Surely you don't have a problem with that, do you?

George Z.
USAF (Ret)
Rescue Pilot Extraordinaire (the kind who used to go looking for the fighter
jocks who'd lost their way or otherwise couldn't get their gear down over their
home runways)
(^-^))))))))))))))))))))


  #35  
Old September 7th 04, 06:30 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
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"Jack" wrote in message
...

LOL.... well my friend, that was a rather lengthy diatribe that said
very little and proved nothing concerning the point of the original
comment. To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne
invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD.


The "North" of NORAD refers to the continent of North America, not to the
direction from which an attack may come.



Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat
is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely
event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern
Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked,
not some champaign unit in Texas.


Southern Command is responsible for Central and South America. Texas and
Florida are in North America.

By the way, you'll find most airbases, regular, Guard, and Reserve, built on
level open country. Makes for easier runway construction.



Scoring the lowest possible passing score, 25%, on his pilots aptitude
test, then leap frogging in front of 500 other qualified applicants
who applied for slots before he did wasn't simply a 'stroke of luck'
for George W. Bush!


There were 500 other qualified applicants for pilot slots in the 111th FIS
at that time? What hard evidence do you have of that?


  #36  
Old September 7th 04, 07:11 PM
Kevin Brooks
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"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
wrote:

In article ,
Jack wrote:

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.


Jack, at least learn to spell champagne. It will lend credibility to
your other ravings.

A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.

You keep forgetting that...


No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
500 hours in the aircraft.


Wrong on two counts. First, F-102s did not fly recce--EVER. They were
interceptors flying air defense alert. And second, the 500 hour
requirement was not for Vietnam deployment but for Palace Alert.


From what I have read, it was not written into stone for Palace Alert,
either--it apparently changed as the available pool of volunteers changed.
One of the last F-102 intercepts of a Tu-95 ever flown by the USAF was made
by a junior ANG LT who was flying Palace Alert duty out of Iceland (around
1973, IIRC).

Lots
of folks went to SEA with a lot less hours in their system even when
"minimum" requirements were higher.

George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.


And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.


Exactly.

Brooks


He did not take a flight physical when he would not be performing
flight duties during the last several months of his ANG tenure when
the force was being reduced in all units as SEA was coming to a
conclusion.

And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org



  #37  
Old September 7th 04, 07:13 PM
Kevin Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
wrote:

In article ,
Jack wrote:


George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.


And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.


Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
waived wasn't waived in his case?


You have been told this before, with citations provided, and you ignored it
then--why would you be interested now?

Brooks


(Snip)

And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?


Who? Me? I was enjoying retired life in North Carolina, having already

done my
bit during three wars. Surely you don't have a problem with that, do you?

George Z.
USAF (Ret)
Rescue Pilot Extraordinaire (the kind who used to go looking for the

fighter
jocks who'd lost their way or otherwise couldn't get their gear down over

their
home runways)
(^-^))))))))))))))))))))




  #38  
Old September 7th 04, 07:23 PM
Steve Hix
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Jack wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
wrote:

In article ,
Jack wrote:

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.


A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.

You keep forgetting that...


No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
500 hours in the aircraft.


Which was pointed out to him when he inquired about signing up for the
program.

George W. Bush had less than 300 when he refused his annual flight physical.


Which he did because he was no longer on flying status (the unit was
swtiching from F-102 to F-101, and his hitch had too little time left to
make retraining worth the effort.

My point was not against those
flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.


Since he was never called to do it, you've got not standing for argument.

He was serving as required by the terms of his enlistment; it's no fault
of his that the aircraft they trained him to fly was being taken out of
service.

To know the neocon chickenhawks ....... watch what they do .... not
what they say...... Jack


It's pretty clear that you're not interested in any inconvenient facts.
  #39  
Old September 7th 04, 07:27 PM
Dave
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A fighter piot who never fought is like a bombardier who never flew a bomb

run
or a navigator who never plotted a course. WORTHLESS

You are a true idiot. Ever hear of the Cold War? How about a sailor on a
missile submarine or a SAC crewman? Were they worthless also?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



  #40  
Old September 7th 04, 08:10 PM
OXMORON1
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George asked:
Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
waived wasn't waived in his case?


One point of view, 500 hours was a "magic" number in a lot of a/c during the
60's. If you got to 500 hours in unit assigned aircraft you were thought to be
proficient in the airplane.
An example, in some units you had to have 500 hours to go cross country solo vs
a two ship deployment with a qualified flight lead. BUT if they needed someone
to go XC to pickup some parts, the 500 hour requirement could/would be waived.
I don't know if the 500 number was an AF Reg or lower mandate.

Rick Clark
 




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