Contact Approach

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:19:48 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

The requirement is for VFR conditions, only in a surface area are VFR
conditions 1000/3.

Not according to the paragraph I quoted in the AIM.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Not according to the paragraph I quoted in the AIM.


Irrelevant. The prerequisites for a visual approach clearance are found in
FAAO 7110.65.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:19:48 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

The requirement is for VFR conditions, only in a surface area are VFR
conditions 1000/3.

Your answer is not responsive to my question. As I quoted, the requirement
in the AIM is for 1000/3 -- NOT for VFR conditions.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:52:29 -0600, "Stan Prevost"
wrote:

Yes, but ATC is bound by 7110.65, which in 7-4-3 says (without regard to
airspace class or surface areas)
b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an
overtaking
aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference,
and
ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot
has
been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport.
Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather
information where AWOS/ASOS is available.


And you are perhaps surprised that the pilot guidance and ATC guidance are
not the same? :-)



Not really. I'm certainly not surprised that guidance to pilots in the AIM
is not backed up by regulation. But I do think the FAA makes some attempt
to keep the AIM, P/CG, and ATC Manual consistent. There will be inevitable
timing differences, but I am somewhat surprised by a long-standing
difference.

I can accept that the FAA has defined in the nonregulatory AIM the
regulation for pilots to follow, as strange as that may sound. But I cannot
understand why Mr. McNicoll keeps saying 1000/3 is required for ATC, when
the ATC manual says VFR, and the only places I can find that 1000/3 exists
is in the Pilot manual (AIM) or in a nonapplicable provision of the FAR.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news



91.155(c), which was the specific regulation you referenced, defines a
prohibition
against VFR operations under certain conditions in any airspace.


The question was, "Where does the 1000 come from?" The answer is FAR
91.155(c).


That is the answer you gave. Why is it the correct answer? 91.155(c) does
not define VFR conditions or permit any operation. It only prohibits
certain operations under certain conditions. How does it contribute toward
satisfying the rule ATC must follow to ensure that VFR conditions exist
before issuing a clearance for a visual approach?



For VFR conditions to exist as required by 7110.65 7-4-3(b) in order to
clear an aircraft for the IFR operation under discussion, one must be
able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules.

That is not correct. The only IFR operation subject to VFR cloud
clearance requirements is VFR-on-top.


That is not correct. On a contact approach, the pilot must remain clear of
clouds.

However, I did not say that the IFR operation is subject to VFR cloud
clearance rules. I said that for VFR conditions to exist, one must be able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules. In other
words, VFR conditions are defined in 91.155(a). When the requirements of
91.155(a) are not met, VFR conditions do not exist and a visual approach
clearance may not be issued in accordance with the ATC manual.

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Your answer is not responsive to my question. As I quoted, the
requirement
in the AIM is for 1000/3 -- NOT for VFR conditions.


The requirements for the issuance of a visual approach clearance are not
found in the AIM, they are found in FAA Order 7110.65. The requirement in
FAA0 7110.65 is for VFR conditions -- NOT for 1000/3.

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

I can accept that the FAA has defined in the nonregulatory AIM the
regulation for pilots to follow, as strange as that may sound. But I
cannot understand why Mr. McNicoll keeps saying 1000/3 is required for
ATC, when the ATC manual says VFR, and the only places I can find that
1000/3 exists is in the Pilot manual (AIM) or in a nonapplicable provision
of the FAR.


Mr. McNicoll never said1000/3 is required for ATC, he said VFR is required.

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

That is the answer you gave. Why is it the correct answer?


Because that's where 1000' comes from.



91.155(c) does
not define VFR conditions or permit any operation. It only prohibits
certain operations under certain conditions. How does it contribute
toward
satisfying the rule ATC must follow to ensure that VFR conditions exist
before issuing a clearance for a visual approach?


The controller must ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR
prior to issuing a visual approach clearance. If you have a ceiling of less
than 1000' in a surface area you do not have VFR conditions and a visual
approach is not available.



That is not correct. On a contact approach, the pilot must remain clear
of
clouds.


Yes, he must remain clear of clouds, which just happens to be the same as
VFR cloud clearance requirements in Class B airspace and Class G airspace
during the day. But VFR cloud clearance requirements are greater in Class
C, D, and E airspace, and yet the pilot must still remain only clear of
clouds on a contact approach. He does not have to follow VFR cloud
clearance requirements on a contact approach or a visual approach.



However, I did not say that the IFR operation is subject to VFR cloud
clearance rules. I said that for VFR conditions to exist, one must be
able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules.


Yes, you said that. It's not true.



In other
words, VFR conditions are defined in 91.155(a). When the requirements of
91.155(a) are not met, VFR conditions do not exist and a visual approach
clearance may not be issued in accordance with the ATC manual.


That's true, but that does not mean that pilots must adhere to VFR cloud
clearance requirements on a VFR approach. Whatever gave you the idea they
did? What purpose would that serve?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...


Mr. McNicoll never said1000/3 is required for ATC, he said VFR is
required.


He said: "1000/3 would be needed only at an airport in a surface area."

7110.65, paragraph 7-4-3 "Clearance for Visual Approach" says VFR
conditions are required for the clearance, with no reference surface areas.

Please explain why 1000/3 is sufficient in surface areas for ATC to issue
the clearance.

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

He said: "1000/3 would be needed only at an airport in a surface area."

7110.65, paragraph 7-4-3 "Clearance for Visual Approach" says VFR
conditions are required for the clearance, with no reference surface
areas.

Please explain why 1000/3 is sufficient in surface areas for ATC to issue
the clearance.


Because that's what constitutes VFR minimums in a surface area. The
visibility must be at least 3 miles, less than that and you do not have VFR
conditions and a visual approach is not available. If there is a ceiling it
must be at least 1000 feet, lower than that and you do not have VFR
conditions and a visual approach is not available. This is pretty basic
stuff, are you a pilot?