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  #41  
Old January 22nd 07, 02:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Navy Wings?


Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:54:10 -0500, wrote:

On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore
wrote:

qui si parla Campagnolo wrote

Mike Kanze wrote:
My entire class was SERGRADed.

When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
take the excess.

What's SERGRADed?


SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
instructors.

That's what we in the junior service call a FAIP--First Assignment IP.

It was a result of the rather extensive draw-down of pilot
requirements at the end of the SEA conflict. In USAF, the agreement
was that each major air command would take UPT graduates in proportion
to the number of line pilot slots they had. So, Training Command with
28% of the AF pilots at that time had to take a quarter of the
graduates.

There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com


I thought it was noise, pain and repetition, no wait, that's for little
kids. I was ususally impressed with the 'plowbacks' in VT-26/5. Most
were very good, but the 'fleet' guys did have something 'extra', even
if it was just a sea story. One of the best in VT-26 was Vidas
Vilkas..Coastie who fenagled his way out of something in the CG to the
USN TraCom..great guy, as memory serves..it WAS 32 years ago.

  #42  
Old January 22nd 07, 02:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Navy Wings?


Bill Baker wrote:
On 2007-01-19 08:34:22 -0800, Ed Rasimus said:

[...]
Although the USAF didn't have truly "excess" capability, they could
absorb a bit of the load for the Navy. We took one USMC student per
class (8 classes per year) per base (10 bases). The Marines went
through the full and complete USAF UPT syllabus (T-41/T-37/T-38) and
upon graduation were awarded USAF pilot wings.


[...]

A number of these Navy pilot candidates were given the opportunity for
inter-service transfers and were picked up by the USAF where they
completed UPT.


Given the numbers you say the Navy cut, at least some of the pilots
given the chop must have been Marine sticks, right Ed? Which means,
presumably, that before UPT they would have gotten at least a good dose
of the "Every Marine is a rifleman!" USMC ethos in Corps OCS, if not
four years of it in NROTC. Must have been an interesting for these
guys to find themselves abruptly in the Air Force. I'm imagining a
freshly-winged butter bar in USAF dress blues except with a high 'n
tight, blood stripe on the trousers and a boarding sabre on his hip.


Did these guys even have a blue uniform? I had an exchange tour with
the USAF, as an IP, 61st TFS/13th TFTS and even the COC was in zoom
bags. I didn't put my 'uniform' on for 2 years, even when I was in
trouble for wearing brown boots and a leather flight jacket.


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  #43  
Old January 22nd 07, 02:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Navy Wings?

Bill Baker wrote:
On 2007-01-19 08:34:22 -0800, Ed Rasimus said:

[...]
Although the USAF didn't have truly "excess" capability, they could
absorb a bit of the load for the Navy. We took one USMC student per
class (8 classes per year) per base (10 bases). The Marines went
through the full and complete USAF UPT syllabus (T-41/T-37/T-38) and
upon graduation were awarded USAF pilot wings.


[...]

A number of these Navy pilot candidates were given the opportunity for
inter-service transfers and were picked up by the USAF where they
completed UPT.


Given the numbers you say the Navy cut, at least some of the pilots
given the chop must have been Marine sticks, right Ed? Which means,
presumably, that before UPT they would have gotten at least a good dose
of the "Every Marine is a rifleman!" USMC ethos in Corps OCS, if not
four years of it in NROTC. Must have been an interesting for these
guys to find themselves abruptly in the Air Force. I'm imagining a
freshly-winged butter bar in USAF dress blues except with a high 'n
tight, blood stripe on the trousers and a boarding sabre on his hip.


Did these guys even have a blue uniform? I had an exchange tour with
the USAF, as an IP, 61st TFS/13th TFTS and even the COC(change of
Command-Papy Fero for the one and only Mike Ryan-future COS of the
USAF) was in zoom bags. I didn't put my 'uniform' on for 2 years, even
when I was in trouble for wearing brown boots and a leather flight
jacket.


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  #44  
Old January 22nd 07, 06:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Mike Kanze
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Navy Wings?

Vidas Vilkas and I went through Preflight School together in 1969. Excellent representative of the fine folks in CG aviation.

However, Vidas was very tight-lipped about his family since many were still living in behind the Iron Curtain (Lithuania?) then.

--
Mike Kanze

"Press '1' if you speak English, press '2' to disconnect until you can."

- Anonymous

"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message oups.com...

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:54:10 -0500, wrote:

On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore
wrote:

qui si parla Campagnolo wrote

Mike Kanze wrote:
My entire class was SERGRADed.

When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
take the excess.

What's SERGRADed?


SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
instructors.

That's what we in the junior service call a FAIP--First Assignment IP.

It was a result of the rather extensive draw-down of pilot
requirements at the end of the SEA conflict. In USAF, the agreement
was that each major air command would take UPT graduates in proportion
to the number of line pilot slots they had. So, Training Command with
28% of the AF pilots at that time had to take a quarter of the
graduates.

There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com


I thought it was noise, pain and repetition, no wait, that's for little
kids. I was ususally impressed with the 'plowbacks' in VT-26/5. Most
were very good, but the 'fleet' guys did have something 'extra', even
if it was just a sea story. One of the best in VT-26 was Vidas
Vilkas..Coastie who fenagled his way out of something in the CG to the
USN TraCom..great guy, as memory serves..it WAS 32 years ago.

  #45  
Old January 23rd 07, 12:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Navy Wings?


Mike Kanze wrote:
Vidas Vilkas and I went through Preflight School together in 1969. Excellent representative of the fine folks in CG aviation.

However, Vidas was very tight-lipped about his family since many were still living in behind the Iron Curtain (Lithuania?) then.

--
Mike Kanze


Shows ya how small USN aviation really is. Vidas was just so happy to
be at VT-26, used to stand around with his gsuit on, all the time,
trying to scarf up extra hops. Story went that after winging, asked a
bunch of them where they wanted to be 'plowed-back', and he kinda just
stayed with the USN bunch and was included.

"Press '1' if you speak English, press '2' to disconnect until you can."

- Anonymous

"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message oups.com...

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:54:10 -0500, wrote:

On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore
wrote:

qui si parla Campagnolo wrote

Mike Kanze wrote:
My entire class was SERGRADed.

When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
take the excess.

What's SERGRADed?

SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
instructors.

That's what we in the junior service call a FAIP--First Assignment IP.

It was a result of the rather extensive draw-down of pilot
requirements at the end of the SEA conflict. In USAF, the agreement
was that each major air command would take UPT graduates in proportion
to the number of line pilot slots they had. So, Training Command with
28% of the AF pilots at that time had to take a quarter of the
graduates.

There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com


I thought it was noise, pain and repetition, no wait, that's for little
kids. I was ususally impressed with the 'plowbacks' in VT-26/5. Most
were very good, but the 'fleet' guys did have something 'extra', even
if it was just a sea story. One of the best in VT-26 was Vidas
Vilkas..Coastie who fenagled his way out of something in the CG to the
USN TraCom..great guy, as memory serves..it WAS 32 years ago.

------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C73E0B.B5E589F0
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DIVFONT face=ArialVidas Vilkas and I went through Preflight School together
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/FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=ArialHowever, Vidas was very tight-lipped about his family
since many were still living in behind the Iron Curtain (Lithuania?) then.
/FONTBRFONT face=ArialBR-- BRMike Kanze/FONT/DIV
DIV /DIV
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DIV"qui si parla Campagnolo" <A
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oglegroups.com"news:1169472994.673575.221300@s34g 2000cwa.googlegroups.com/A.../DIVBREd
Rasimus wrote:BR> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:54:10 -0500, A
/A wrote:BR>BR>
>On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore <A
"rmoore16@ta mpabay.rr.com/A>BR>
>wrote:BR> >BR> >>qui si parla Campagnolo wroteBR>
>>BR> >>> Mike Kanze wrote:BR> >>> My entire
class was SERGRADed.BR> >>>BR> >>> When I got my
wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2BR> >>>
weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders forBR>
>>> a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other
MikeBR> >>> Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a
few A-4..Not enoughBR> >>> nuggets to fill all the rquirments
but they wouldn't let any SergradsBR> >>> take the
excess.BR> >>BR> >>What's SERGRADed?BR>
>BR> >SElective Retained GRADuate.  Newly winged guys plowed
back asBR> >instructors.BR> >BR> That's what we in the
junior service call a FAIP--First Assignment IP.BR>BR> It was a
result of the rather extensive draw-down of pilotBR> requirements at the
end of the SEA conflict. In USAF, the agreementBR> was that each major
air command would take UPT graduates in proportionBR> to the number of
line pilot slots they had. So, Training Command withBR> 28% of the AF
pilots at that time had to take a quarter of theBR>
graduates.BR>BR> There was  a lot of emotional argument about
quality, but it reallyBR> turns out that the job is so rote that a
brand-new grad can be prettyBR> good at it. The only thing missing is the
intimidation factor that isBR> the basic stock-in-trade of the military
flight instructor. The threeBR> tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and
ridicule.BR>BR>BR> Ed RasimusBR> Fighter Pilot
(USAF-Ret)BR> "When Thunder Rolled"BR>  A
href="http://www.thunderchief.org"www.thunderchief.org/ABR>  A
href="http://www.thundertales.blogspot.com"www.thundertales.bl ogspot.com/ABRBRI
thought it was noise, pain and repetition, no wait, that's for littleBRkids.
I was ususally impressed with the 'plowbacks' in VT-26/5. MostBRwere very
good, but the 'fleet' guys did have something 'extra', evenBRif it was just
a sea story. One of the best in VT-26 was VidasBRVilkas..Coastie who
fenagled his way out of something in the CG to theBRUSN TraCom..great guy,
as memory serves..it WAS 32 years ago.BR/BLOCKQUOTE/BODY/HTML

------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C73E0B.B5E589F0--


  #46  
Old January 23rd 07, 03:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
John[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Navy Wings?

On 21 Jan 2007 06:40:03 -0800, "qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:

When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
take the excess.


I got my wings in August of 74 out of VT-24 also. Who else was in your
group? Not likely we ever flew any sorties together as you were just
far enough ahead of us. Jim Collins was my primary IP in VT-24. I had
Len Nicholson (USMC Captain) in VT-26. Gene Teter was CO of VT-24 then
and I crossed paths with him a number of times over the years. Got
qute a few former Bobcats here at the airline too. You may remember Al
Ramos - one of our senior captains now.

I got SERGRADed to VT-24 myself. There were 9 of us who got winged on
the end of August. 3 got SERGRAD (myself, my best friend Craig
Henderson (VT-23 Kingsville) and one to Meridian), 1 each A-7 and A-4
fleet seats, 3 got VC and one went to a desk and never got a cockpit
again. All of us were disappointed because just a few months earlier
(as in your case) there seemed to be plenty of orders and few
SERGRADS. However, the hump from the 'Nam push caught up to us. And it
got worse - a couple of classes after us all the orders were SERGRAD
or desks (just about 50/50).

In spite of the purge earlier, there were still too many in the
pipeline. That, combined with the transitions that were going on. The
S-3 was not yet on-line, the A-4 was giving way to the A-7 and the F-4
to the F-14. As squadrons came back from Nam they got decommissioned
or lost their aircraft while the crews went through transition. That
meant not enough seats for the guys coming out of training. We had
guys that got S-3 orders, but had to come back for two weeks of flying
every 6 months until the RAG stood up and actually had jets for them
to fly.

  #47  
Old January 23rd 07, 02:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Navy Wings?


John wrote:
On 21 Jan 2007 06:40:03 -0800, "qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:

When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
take the excess.


I got my wings in August of 74 out of VT-24 also. Who else was in your
group? Not likely we ever flew any sorties together as you were just
far enough ahead of us. Jim Collins was my primary IP in VT-24. I had
Len Nicholson (USMC Captain) in VT-26. Gene Teter was CO of VT-24 then
and I crossed paths with him a number of times over the years. Got
qute a few former Bobcats here at the airline too. You may remember Al
Ramos - one of our senior captains now.


I was in VT-25. I don't remember a lot of the IPs, Dave McNally, Roger
Hoos, some really good USMC major, a gent fro OV-10s. Wigs Ludwig was a
TraWing guy, another future boss of mine in VF-31 and VX-4. Remains a
mystery why all the fleet seats for our bunch, fewer before and after.
When in the F-4 RAG, VF-101, Oceana, we were in a very small
class..only 2 nuggests, some F-8 transition guys(Red Best was one of
the F-8 transition guys, another of my futrure bosses).

I got SERGRADed to VT-24 myself. There were 9 of us who got winged on
the end of August. 3 got SERGRAD (myself, my best friend Craig
Henderson (VT-23 Kingsville) and one to Meridian), 1 each A-7 and A-4
fleet seats, 3 got VC and one went to a desk and never got a cockpit
again. All of us were disappointed because just a few months earlier
(as in your case) there seemed to be plenty of orders and few
SERGRADS. However, the hump from the 'Nam push caught up to us. And it
got worse - a couple of classes after us all the orders were SERGRAD
or desks (just about 50/50).

In spite of the purge earlier, there were still too many in the
pipeline. That, combined with the transitions that were going on. The
S-3 was not yet on-line, the A-4 was giving way to the A-7 and the F-4
to the F-14. As squadrons came back from Nam they got decommissioned
or lost their aircraft while the crews went through transition. That
meant not enough seats for the guys coming out of training. We had
guys that got S-3 orders, but had to come back for two weeks of flying
every 6 months until the RAG stood up and actually had jets for them
to fly.


 




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