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Kills with Guns



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 30th 07, 01:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Schlomo Lipchitz
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Posts: 1
Default Kills with Guns

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???
  #2  
Old June 30th 07, 06:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
John Carrier
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Posts: 85
Default Kills with Guns


"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message
...
Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???


On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

R / John


  #3  
Old June 30th 07, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
TV
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Posts: 22
Default Kills with Guns

Israeli pilots have made gun kills with the F-15, and I believe, the F-16.
Maybe a Pakistani F-16 gun kill too. And in Venezuela, pilots have also
made guns kills with the F-16. I think all of the US F-14 and -18 kills
have been with Sidewinders.

In Vietnam, the lack of a gun in the F-4 was probably less of a problem than
poor tactical training and ROE/lack of early BVR NCTR. Not to mention poor
missile reliabilities. I say this based on the Crusader's lack of gun
kills. But it's a catchy bitching phrase to talk about the lack of a gun as
a major disadvantage.

TV

"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message
...
Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???



  #4  
Old June 30th 07, 07:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
TV
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Posts: 22
Default Kills with Guns

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun
kill in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.


According to a recent interview I saw on TV, at least one Israeli pilot got
a guns kill in a F-15 on a Mig-21 solely for the prestige of getting a guns
kill. That blurs the fine line between being bold and being stupid! Hard
to argue with their record though. Funny comment about the Thud kills- it
reminds of G.I. Basel's: "It wasn't a memorable battle. They didn't see me.
I whispered 'Jesus' and filled the sky with 20 mm bullets. It didn't seem
fair, I wanted to honk or something." Perhaps the most humble account of an
a-a kill I've ever heard!

TV


  #5  
Old July 1st 07, 01:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
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Posts: 19
Default Kills with Guns

On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message

...

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???


On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.


No Crusader gun kills?


R / John



  #6  
Old July 1st 07, 03:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
vincent norris
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Posts: 35
Default Kills with Guns

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.


John, there ought to be some interesting stories about those kills.

vince norris
  #7  
Old July 1st 07, 05:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
TV
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Kills with Guns

No Crusader gun kills?

If I'm not mistaken, there were only 3-4 kills out of the 19-20 that the
Crusader got in Vietnam. The rest were Sidewinder kills. So like I said
below, this goes against the idea of the gun being critical to a-a success
in Vietnam. Only a fool would argue that it wouldn't have helped to have a
gun on all the F-4s, but it wouldn't have been as revolutionary as some
claim IMO. There were F-4 gun kills too, but again, far fewer than missile
kills (even for the -E). ROE, training, NCTR, and missile reliability were
the more critical factors IMO.

TV


  #8  
Old July 1st 07, 12:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
John Carrier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Kills with Guns


wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message

...

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???


On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun
kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.


No Crusader gun kills?


The question was about the modern aircraft. For the F-8, if I counted
correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no
ordnance expended ;-).

R / John


  #9  
Old July 1st 07, 02:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default Kills with Guns

On Jul 1, 7:24 am, "John Carrier" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...





On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message


...


Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???


On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun
kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.


An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.


No Crusader gun kills?


The question was about the modern aircraft.


Hey, you brought up the 105s.....22.5 gun kills? I just figured the
Crusaders had gotten a few because they were the last "gunfighters".

For the F-8, if I counted
correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no
ordnance expended ;-).


The old "He's on my tail....eject!" or just flew into the ground
trying to evade?


R / John- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



  #10  
Old July 1st 07, 03:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
John Carrier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Kills with Guns


wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 1, 7:24 am, "John Carrier" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...





On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message


...


Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if
any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???


On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to
drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense
to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A
gun
kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.


An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.


No Crusader gun kills?


The question was about the modern aircraft.


Hey, you brought up the 105s.....22.5 gun kills? I just figured the
Crusaders had gotten a few because they were the last "gunfighters".

For the F-8, if I counted
correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no
ordnance expended ;-).


The old "He's on my tail....eject!" or just flew into the ground
trying to evade?



Frank Bachman and Jerry Tucker (VF-24 IIRC, Hancock) got a vector in second
half of '72. The Crusader community was quite frustrated by this time
because only the F-4's were getting vectors, let alone getting tally-ho's.
Canopy flash at about 5 NM, started a conversion with a Mig-17 and visually
ID'd the bandit with a bit more than 90 to go. Prior to rolling out in
envelope, the guy ejected. They thought it'd be pretty cool, one Mig kill
shared, no ordnance expended. Ship was given credit for the kill.

No telling what was going on with the Mig driver. Perhaps under training on
his first FAM solo. A mainenance check flight gone bad. Maybe a cripple
just trying to limp home. Allegedly, the Vietnamese transmitted something
akin to "Oh !*&!!", they're F-8's" and then punched. Good sea story
regardless, and like many somewhat improbable and colorful in the community,
true.

R / John


 




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