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#21
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
Wouldn't the condensation freeze just as readily, inside the vented volume?
Hmmm... that's why I fly them rather than design them. Jose -- "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are." - (mike). for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#22
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
Stan Prevost wrote
Thanks for that little story, Bob. You are the only person I have ever heard report the same kind of occurence. I have been accused of lying, even though it seems obvious that it will occur. In the B-707, after an ocean crossing, we always landed with 1/4" of frost on the bottom surface of the wings. Bob Moore |
#23
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
Thanks, Bob and others, for your corroboration.
"Bob Moore" wrote in message 46.128... Stan Prevost wrote Thanks for that little story, Bob. You are the only person I have ever heard report the same kind of occurence. I have been accused of lying, even though it seems obvious that it will occur. In the B-707, after an ocean crossing, we always landed with 1/4" of frost on the bottom surface of the wings. Bob Moore |
#24
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
"Peter" wrote in message ...
Then we get onto the thorny subject of determining cloud tops in Europe.... but let's not confuse the Americans too much, with their superior weather services I dunno about services, but perhaps America has superior *weather*. |
#25
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
Doug wrote: The only situation that is deemed to be even slightly "ok" is to descend from VMC down through a possible icing layer 1000' thick on approach where you have weather report and know you can land, where they are saying "light rime". That might be ok. People do it and get away with it. No, if the assigned altitude is still well above the MEA and warmer air, its fine. Sometimes you have to tell ATC you can't decend to 12,000 but can take 8,000 if the MEA is only 3,000. My experience with ice is you can't really predict it. If it's below freezing and you are in a cloud or it's raining or snowing, you will probably get it. And without a known ice airplane, you will NOT WANT TO BE THERE!! Yes, but once you start using your IFR ticket you'll find that you either spend the winter on the ground or have the occasional ice encounter. The trick is to keep outs available. -Robert, CFII |
#26
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
Mark Hansen wrote: On 12/22/06 15:49, Frank Stutzman wrote: Doug wrote: You ice up, can't climb and are forced to descend into unknown terrain/ceilings. Definitely DON'T do that. Given enough ice, you don't really have any other options. I read his comment as "Don't allow yourself to get into this situation in the first place." Of course, once you're there, there's no going back ;-\ Personally, if I have warm MEA's below me I don't worry about it too much. You just need to keep outs. Being able to decend into warm air is an out. It varies greatly with the type of clouds you are in too. Stratus clouds have large areas of ice but thin altitudes. CU clouds tend to have verticle ice for thousands of feet but you pass through them quickly. Mixed of course is the worse. From practicle point of view there are two types of instrument pilots. Those that have encountered ice and those that keep their instrument ticket at home. -Robert |
#27
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
On 26 Dec 2006 11:06:07 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote: Doug wrote: The only situation that is deemed to be even slightly "ok" is to descend from VMC down through a possible icing layer 1000' thick on approach where you have weather report and know you can land, where they are saying "light rime". That might be ok. People do it and get away with it. No, if the assigned altitude is still well above the MEA and warmer air, its fine. Sometimes you have to tell ATC you can't decend to 12,000 but can take 8,000 if the MEA is only 3,000. My experience with ice is you can't really predict it. If it's below freezing and you are in a cloud or it's raining or snowing, you will probably get it. And without a known ice airplane, you will NOT WANT TO BE THERE!! Yes, but once you start using your IFR ticket you'll find that you either spend the winter on the ground or have the occasional ice encounter. The trick is to keep outs available. IFR? As a student (with instructor) we stayed strictly VMC, but still brought a 150 back looking like a popsicle. Coming in to land it was warm enough to start melting the ice. The stuff was coming off in chunks that were flying back and hitting the tail. It sounded like a trash can falling over. Michigan and the Great Lakes in general are known for lake effect storms. They can pop up suddenly and be isolated of cover wide areas. This was about a week or so before my solo cross country. As luck would have it, A whole bunch of lake effect snow storms popped up between Cheboygan and Traverse City on the solo cross country. Even with a detour to the south I still got bounced around a lot, but that exposure to ice and lake effect storms really made the cross country much more relaxed than it would have been otherwise. That was an interesting cross country. I had to refuel twice. You need those "outs" even as a VFR pilot. People generally think of weather changing slowly, but even watching as closely as I do I've been caught a couple of times. In many areas the weather can go from great to IMC in a matter of minutes. If you know the conditions you should have a good idea as to the shortest way out and what frequencies to use to make sure. -Robert, CFII Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com |
#28
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
Roger wrote: On 26 Dec 2006 11:06:07 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" wrote: Michigan and the Great Lakes in general are known for lake effect storms. They can pop up suddenly and be isolated of cover wide areas. This was about a week or so before my solo cross country. A very good reason to ask about weather from a local before flying in any wx. I'm very familiar with California and the entire SW region and Mexico. I can talk to you about summer TS management, Mexican monsoons, etc but I can't tell you about Michigan wx. I would seek advice before flying in that area. The WX in the Western part of the U.S. is typically very predictable. My understanding is that is not the case East of the rockies. -Robert, CFII |
#29
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
One question I have is what is "warmer" air? If I climb to freezing temps in the clouds (which I have done), is descending to an altitude that is maybe 2C sufficient to prevent further icing? From my experience, the answer appears to be that this is sufficient, but I'm wondering if the surfaces are still cold enough to allow ice to build. -Brian Robert M. Gary wrote: No, if the assigned altitude is still well above the MEA and warmer air, its fine. Sometimes you have to tell ATC you can't decend to 12,000 but can take 8,000 if the MEA is only 3,000. |
#30
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SE airplanes in clouds - near freezing level
Brian wrote: One question I have is what is "warmer" air? If I climb to freezing temps in the clouds (which I have done), is descending to an altitude that is maybe 2C sufficient to prevent further icing? From my experience, the answer appears to be that this is sufficient, but I'm wondering if the surfaces are still cold enough to allow ice to build. It sure depends on the time beeing in the cold. A surface which has collected ice but sees 1°C or 2°C "warm" air or water will definetly melt after some time. A certain delay might be caused (as we learned) with subcooled fuel-(tanks) as the mass is much bigger. (So far lasts my "theory", as I posted the topic to learn from the cloud pokers) How about the "Freezing Fog" which the METARS show regularly since two weeks over here in Europe ? We have a 0°C .. 5°C surface temperature with a stable high pressure system on top. Variable winds of 2kts and morning / evening fog, with a lifting during the day to max. 500 feet in haze. On top (in 3000 feet) we need sun cream! How dangerous is freezing fog in such a small layer ?? |
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