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#331
December 14th 03, 06:32 PM
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In article , "G.R. Patterson III"
writes: Wdtabor wrote: What the market does is to manipulate the demand. The market says "You don't *really* want *that*. Here's what you *really* want." Actually, what it says is that if you *really* want that, it will cost you $$$$$. But if that is too much, we can provide this instead at $$$. Try to locate 1/2" plywood at any price in the U.S. Then take a look at how much money the lumber industry spent lobbying Congress for the rules that prevent Canadian companies from selling it to us. And if you don't think there's a demand for it, bring the subject up in home repair and woodworking groups. If you're looking for me to support import restrictions to protect domestic industries, you'll be disappointed. But that says nothing about the free market. On the contrary, unholy alliances betwen industry and government to suppress free trade are one of the things we Libertarians are most opposed to. A free market must be free. And in the long run, it always punishes those who try to interfere with it. Whatever jobs import restrictions save in one industry are more than offset by jobs lost somewhere else because of higher costs and pinched supplies. So, again, the free market always wins, but we get slapped around a bit when we try to outsmart it. Don -- Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS PP-ASEL Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG 
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#332
December 14th 03, 06:32 PM
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In article qM0Db.5251$pY.2269@fed1read04, "R. Hubbell"
writes: On 14 Dec 2003 11:48:12 GMT ackatyu (Wdtabor) wrote: In article oSTCb.3979$pY.3084@fed1read04, "R. Hubbell" writes: In other words, tell them how to live and how to use their property. No, not in other words, in those words. We teach them. You know "give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him, he eats for a lifetime...." Maybe useful to add... Teach him to manage the fishery and his children and their children eat and so on and on. Wow! It must be nice to be so sure of your superiority. But even if that were true, what gives you the right to direct their lives? I guess you're done since you don't have any counterpoint. Sure I did, it just went over your arrogant head. Your priorities for their land and lives are not theirs. You don't live there and you bear no risk if your Pollyanna ideas of land use fail, but their children die if they accept your advice and it is wrong. So, unless you can, in some way, underwrite your plans for their resources and lives, you have no right to impose your vision of land use on them. So long as you do not share the risks of failure, you have no right to make their choices for them. So, as I said before, if you think you can manage their land better than they can, organize a consortium of like minded individuals and BUY their land from them so that you bear the risk if your ideas don't work instead of them. Otherwise, I'm sure if they want your enlightened advice, they can ask for it. Don -- Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS PP-ASEL Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG
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#333
December 14th 03, 06:37 PM
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"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ... Carl Ellis wrote: Live in one county, work and vote in another. Everywhere I've lived, that was illegal. George Patterson Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is "Hummmmm... That's interesting...." The working or the voting 8-). I believe that in Oregon the out of district vote is treated like an absentee vote. It is put aside, then residency is verified, then the vote is counted. Of course you can't vote on local issues if you do this. But I am not 100% positive on this. - Carl - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.550 / Virus Database: 342 - Release Date: 12/9/2003
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#334
December 14th 03, 06:47 PM
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"Carl Ellis" wrote in message ... "G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ... Carl Ellis wrote: Live in one county, work and vote in another. Everywhere I've lived, that was illegal. George Patterson Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is "Hummmmm... That's interesting...." The working or the voting 8-). I believe that in Oregon the out of district vote is treated like an absentee vote. It is put aside, then residency is verified, then the vote is counted. Of course you can't vote on local issues if you do this. But I am not 100% positive on this. - Carl - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.550 / Virus Database: 342 - Release Date: 12/9/2003 Looks like it's possible in Oregon. There doesn't seem to be any rule for verifying the reason for the absence from your county of residence. In practice this looks like it it treated like a normal absentee ballot for which no justification is required either. http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/253.html 253.135 Special absent elector procedures. (1) An elector who, on the day of an election, will be absent from the county in which the elector is registered may vote at the elections office of any county clerk or at any polling site in this state. (2) An elector voting under this section shall complete and sign a voter registration card. (3) The elector shall insert the ballot into a small envelope provided by the election board and then shall insert the small envelope into a larger envelope. The larger envelope shall be deposited into the ballot box. (4) A ballot cast under this section shall be forwarded to the county clerk of the county in which the elector resides not later than the eighth day after the election. The ballot shall be counted in the county in which the elector resides if the elector is qualified to vote in that county. A vote shall be counted only if the elector is qualified to vote for the particular office or on the measure. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.550 / Virus Database: 342 - Release Date: 12/9/2003
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#335
December 14th 03, 08:23 PM
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Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose my
vote. Mine, too, for several reasons. But who ya gonna vote for next time? Dean? Ick! Good point. At this time, I see no viable alternative to GW. And with today's momentous capture of Saddam, Bush is looking more and more like a sure thing in 2004. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination"
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#336
December 14th 03, 10:01 PM
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:SE3Db.550532$Fm2.519490@attbi_s04... Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose my vote. Mine, too, for several reasons. But who ya gonna vote for next time? Dean? Ick! Good point. At this time, I see no viable alternative to GW. And with today's momentous capture of Saddam, Bush is looking more and more like a sure thing in 2004. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" I belong to the ABBA party. Anybody But Bush Again! lol Dean??? OK, if I have to... Harvey
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#338
December 14th 03, 11:28 PM
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G.R. Patterson III ) wrote:
: : : Jay Honeck wrote: : : Bush is no fiscal conservative, and, as a result, will probably lose my : vote. : : Same here. If there's any decent alternative. So far, I don't see one. : The Property Party (Democrats & Republicans) has sworn its allegiance to India, Inc.... ------------------------------ JOB DESTRUCTION NEWSLETTER by Rob Sanchez www.ZaZona.com ------------------------------ President Bush isn't a viable option for President if you want to save American jobs. Bush supports unlimited H-1B visas, unlimited guest-worker visas for blue-collar workers, and he recently proved that he won't oppose the WTO's free-trade mandates to destroy our steel industry. Simply put, Bush will continue to allow our industries to be offshored and he will support the importation of cheap foreign labor to take our jobs. The logical alternative would be to vote for a Democrat for President, but don't rush to their support quite yet! That's because every single major candidate is kowtowing to India. Democrats like the smell of Rupees as much as the Dollar. They recently pledged their allegiance to India by writing letters of commitment to the interests of USINPAC. You can see shortened versions of their letters below, and there are links so that you can read their entire letters of betrayal to the American workers who will be voting for them. Preceding their letter summaries is an email that was sent out by Sanjay Puri, the Executive Director of USINPAC. Sanjay is so proud of the fact that he has all the major candidates under his thumb he announced it to USINPAC members on 12/1/2003 via email. The U.S. India Political Action Committee, or USINPAC, was formed by Indian American owned IT businesses in order to use their political clout to enhance offshoring to India, and of course to promote an easing of any restrictions that H-1B and L-1 visas contain. They focus on obtaining lucrative US government contracts. USINPAC is registered with the Federal Election Commission in the state of Virginia see (http://www.fec.gov/). USINPAC claims that they are a bunch of rich Indian Americans. They say this so that they can get registered as a Political Action Committee, but even on their own website they admit that their ties to India are very strong. This organization is as smelly as curry-encrusted 2-Rupee bill! http://www.usinpac.com/240903_nr.asp The US India Political Action Committee (USINPAC) is a national, bipartisan political action committee of the Indian American community. Based in Washington, DC, USINPAC is a strong and clear voice on Capitol Hill. USINPAC's mission is to impact policy on issues of concern to the Indian American community. Commending the efforts, and achievements of USINPAC, in the short span of one year since its founding, the Prime Minister promised support from Indian policy makers, and invited and welcomed a USINPAC delegation to India in January 2004 to mark the NRI Day celebrations. With the Indian Foreign Secretary, Kanwal Sibal, the Indian Ambassador, Lalit Mansingh, and the Joint Secretary, PM Office, P S Raghavan, also present, the Prime Minister offered support to USINPAC's mission, and encouraged USINPAC to continue its innovative efforts in building closer strategic and economic ties between the US and India, "The mission you have started," he said, "has to succeed." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ Directly below you will see statements taken from the Democrats' letters. In all cases they pledged to support the best interests of the Indian economy. Candidates missing from this list include Rev. Al Sharpton, Dennis Kucinich, and Carol Moseley Braun. Kucinich has repeatedly said that he supports guest-worker visa programs and endorsed the guest-worker/amnesty bill called "Border Security and Immigration Improvement Act of 2003" that is sponsored by Sen. John McCain, Rep. Jeff Flake, and Jim Kolbe. All of this means that there are only two Democrats that might not have been bought off yet - Al Sharpton and Mosely Braun. At this time I don't have information on where Al Sharpton or Mosely Braun stand on H-1B or guest-worker visas so I cannot endorse them yet. DICK GEPHARDT I have taken efforts to make the United States a better place to live and work for the Indian-American community. In 2000, I negotiated an agreement to increase the number of H-1B visas issued by the United States. I also won bipartisan support for the H-1B visa increase by including worker-training funds in the legislation. This was a huge victory for Indians seeking to come to the United States to share their tremendous talents. JOE LIEBERMAN Indian Americans must be in the forefront of shaping domestic and international policy for the United States. They have earned a seat at the policy table, and the country will be better off for their participation in policy debates in Washington and beyond. I also oppose any efforts to eliminate or diminish the H1-B visa program. Why do we want to limit or otherwise handicap a community that has made such significant and important contributions to this country? It is counter-intuitive and counter-productive. JOHN KERRY I believe it is important, to both the United States and to India, that the economic and military relationship between our two countries continue to grow. ... I will work to cut the backlog of applications pending with the Bureau for Citizenship and Immigration Services, speed up the naturalization process and reduce the wait for family visas and other important matters. HOWARD DEAN A few months ago, I had the pleasure of joining members of the US India Political Action Committee in Washington, DC. America is an immigrant nation and as President, I will recognize and respect the vital role that all immigrants, including Indians, have played in building the American community. For instance, I will work to end the backlogs in processing visa applications and providing for family reunifications by ensuring adequate funding for the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services. WESLEY CLARK With the exception of the Native Americans among us, we are all immigrants. A carefully calibrated H-1 visa program allows our nation to continue to benefit from the skills of the global community. Immigration and the ability to harness the talents of a connected worlds, is crucial to our economic, cultural and political progression. I'm proud to acknowledge that India has been a vibrant source of talent for America. JOHN EDWARDS I applaud the work of the United States India Political Action Committee (USINPAC) and believe that asking candidates to respond to the concerns of your constituency is important. America works best when each and every individual is engaged in civic participation and I look forward to working with the Indian American community. Increased trade with India could create many jobs in the United States. ------------------------------------ US India Political Action Committee Welcome to Presidential Election Campaign 2004! Message from USINPAC Executive director Sanjay puri Dear Friends, With the Presidential Election now less than a year away, campaigning for the nomination among the Democrats is now in full swing. On the Republican side, President Bush will be the nominee for re-election. All of the candidates have been keenly seeking the support of the Indian American community. Several have reached out actively to our community. The Indian American community has been increasingly active in public affairs. In the last Presidential Election, we estimate that the community contributed over $7 million to the various campaigns. This is a very welcome development, indicating the growing political maturation of the community. At the same time, it is unclear if this has as yet resulted in any significant recognition of the community as a voting block in either of the two parties. We still have far too little visible presence of Indian Americans in the campaigns. USINPAC is working to change this situation. Consistent with this objective, USINPC has decided to provide an opportunity to the Indian American community to find out by the various candidates, particularly on issues important to us. We plan to make this information available on our website, and we will continue to update it periodically. We hope this information will be helpful to you as you make up your mind about each of the candidates. Support Groups are in the process of being formed. If you have an interest, please contact Dr. Inder Sud at: who is spearheading this effort for USINPAC. Click here to read the rest of the message. Go to our Presidential Elections 2004 site Thank you, Sanjay Puri Executive Director US India Political Action Committee ------------------------------------ Letter from Congressman Gephardt Dear Friends: I applaud the work of the United States India Political Action Committee (USINPAC), and appreciate the opportunity to share my views with you. Since its inception, USINPAC has encouraged Indian-Americans to become politically active and strengthened Indian-American communications at the federal, state and local levels. In May of this year, I was honored to speak with members of USINPAC during their Democratic Leadership Day to discuss issues that impact Indian-American communities. The United States and India have formed a bond over the years that reflects our common interests. Since I was elected to Congress 27 years ago, I have always been committed to issues that better the lives of Indians and Indian-Americans. I welcome the opportunity to share with you my views and strong record on these issues. (To read the rest of letter, click here.) http://www.usinpac.com/RichardGephardtPE2004.asp#dick Best regards, Congressman Richard A. Gephardt ------------------------------------ Letter from Senator Lieberman Dear Friends: The strength of the United States has always come from its diversity. Its diversity comes from its immigrant communities. We are a strong nation, a unified nation, because of our diversity. One of our nation=92s most important and fastest growing immigrant communities is the Indian American Community. It is two million plus strong and growing. Approximately 10% of the medical students in this country are Indian American. One out of four high tech businesses in the San Francisco Bay Area is Indian American owned. The American landscape is full of Indian entrepreneurs who create economic growth and opportunity as small businessmen and -women. Indian Americans have the highest per capita income of any ethnic minority at $68,000. In short, Indian Americans are a success story. (To read the rest of letter, click here.) http://www.usinpac.com/JoeLiebermanPE2004.asp#joe Sincerely, Joe Lieberman ------------------------------------ Letter from Senator Kerry Dear Friends: I am delighted to have this opportunity to share my views and my vision with the Indian-American community. The importance of this election cannot be overstated. George Bush has taken our country down the wrong path in nearly every conceivable way. As president, I will make America safer, stronger and more prosperous. I will nurture the important relationship between the United States and India and ensure that the rights of Indian-Americans are protected here at home. I have long supported a closer relationship between the United States and India -- democracies that share many ideals, and face common challenges. I believe it is important, to both the United States and to India, that the economic and military relationship between our two countries continue to grow. As President, I will continue the combined naval and special forces exercises our governments have undertaken. The threat of international terrorism affects both the United States and India. And the fight against terrorism requires a mix of military, diplomatic and law enforcement responses. I strongly believe that the United States and India must continue to work together to bolster our joint capacities. The development of bilateral and multilateral working groups is crucial. (To read the rest of letter, click here.) http://www.usinpac.com/JohnKerryPE2004.asp#kerry Sincerely, John F. Kerry ------------------------------------ Letter from Governor Dean Dear Friends, A few months ago, I had the pleasure of joining members of the US India Political Action Committee in Washington, DC, as part of your Democratic Leadership Day. I would like to take this opportunity to share with your entire membership why I am running for President of the United States and how, as President, I will address some of the issues that are important to the Indian American community. I am running for President to restore the ideal of the American community. Protecting our civil rights is fundamental to this ideal. Whether you define community by geography, ethnicity, religion, or shared experience, our democracy is built on a foundation of mutual respect and equal opportunity for all our diverse populations. To accomplish this goal, I will appoint an Attorney General who sees our constitution not as a document to be manipulated, ignored, and violated, but recognizes and respects it as the fabric that binds the American community together. As President, I will implement measures to remove the glass ceiling that impedes qualified men and women from professional advancement because of race or national origin. I will also direct my Attorney General to put an end to racial profiling practices within the federal government and among federally funded state and local law enforcement agencies. I will call for the rollback of the Patriot Act and the overly broad investigative and surveillance powers it gives to the government. I will also oppose any effort to expand the powers authorized under the Act. (To read the rest of letter, click here.) http://www.usinpac.com/HowardDeanPE2004.asp#dean Sincerely, Howard Dean, M.D. ------------------------------------ Letter from Wesley K. Clark Greetings USINPAC members: Thank you for inviting me to share my views with you. I believe America=92s true strength lies in its diversity, and the Indian- American community is integral to the enrichment and prosperity of this country. I commend the United States India Political Action Committee (USINPAC) for being engaged in the kind of public discourse that makes America great. The relationship between the U.S. and India is rooted in our common democratic ideals=97and it grows stronger everyday. As President I will be committed to addressing the wide range of issues important to the Indian-American community. (To read the rest of letter, click here.) http://www.usinpac.com/WesleyClerkPE2004.asp#wesley Sincerely, Wesley K. Clark ------------------------------------ Letter from Senator Edwards Dear Members of the USINPAC: I applaud the work of the United States India Political Action Committee (USINPAC) and believe that asking candidates to respond to the concerns of your constituency is important. America works best when each and every individual is engaged in civic participation and I look forward to working with the Indian American community. The United States and India share many common strategic interests. I agree with Prime Minister Vajpayee that as the world=92s largest democracies, and with the values and principles that we share, the U.S. and India are "natural allies." As natural allies, we should continue to cooperate on a wide range of defense issues, including joint military exercises and the sale of military equipment when this enhances India's security and contributes to regional stability. (To read the rest of letter, click here.) http://www.usinpac.com/JohnEdwardsPE2004.asp#john Sincerely, John Edwards =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Support this Newsletter and ZaZona.com by donating: www.zazona.com/Donations.htm To Subscribe or Unsubscribe send an email to =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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#339
December 15th 03, 06:01 PM
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"R. Hubbell" wrote in message news:MBICb.2788$pY.2535@fed1read04... On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:20:22 -0600 "Gig Giacona" wrote: Your argument proves my point. If it becomes important enough the market will deal with the problem. In this case the Toyota Prius. But I'd be willing to bet they are not out selling SUVs. Now I've got you! Mooohahaha.  SUVs have been selling like hot cakesbecause of at least two loopholes in the laws. One is how they are classified and the other is a huge tax-break for businesses that buy them (a weight thing) Keep in mind that the world and for that matter the USA is a very big place. Not every state gives huge tax breaks for SUVs. And in most states the tax goes up with the weight. BUT... for the sake of agument let's not even talk about cars bought for business use... Just personal. I'd be will ing to bet the Prius is still way behind the even Toyota's own SUV in sales. The "market" you lovingly cling to is once again artificially buoyed up because it's rivets are popping and it's long in the tooth and creaking and it's past TBO and it's ready to rest in Davey Jones' locker and it's ready to go Tango Uniform and .... And state controlled economies have just proven SOOOO successful. Now the Prius has huge tariffs imposed by the US govt. and their are no loopholes. (although I think in some states the state subsidizes a portion of the cost, sort of like undoing the federally imposed tariffs) I have no idea what the tariff is on the Prius but from Toyota's own web site there seems to be some sort of Federal Tax DEDUCTION for buying one. Retail purchasers of a new Prius may be eligible for a federal tax deduction of up to $2,000 for purchases completed during calendar year 2003. Details are as follows: How to Claim up to $2,000 Federal Tax Deduction The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) requires that purchasers retain normal proof of purchase documentation as well as the Toyota Certification letter and Internal Revenue Service Acknowledgement letter as substantiation for the deduction. For printable copies of both letters, click the icons below. For further information from the IRS, see the IRS News Releases of October 6, 2003; August 12, 2003; and Revenue Procedure 2002-42. Toyota Certification Letter - Model Years 2001, 2002 and 2003 Toyota Certification Letter - Model Year 2004 IRS Acknowledgement Letter - Model Years 2001, 2002 and 2003 IRS Acknowledgement Letter - Model Year 2004 Up to $2,000 Federal Tax Deduction Guidelines The purchase of a new Prius (model years 2001, 2002, 2003 or 2004 only) must be completed on or before December 31, 2003 for the $2000 deduction. Vehicles purchased during calendar year 2004 may be eligible for a $1,500 tax deduction. Before using this important federal tax deduction on your tax return, please check with your tax advisor for possible additional state tax benefits and for any changes in the federal tax laws that might occur after October 1, 2003. The federal tax deduction is not available for Prius lessees or purchasers of used Prius vehicles. To the extent applicable, this deduction is available to Prius purchasers regardless of whether you itemize deductions on your federal income tax return. Your overall federal tax benefit will depend on your individual tax situation, particularly if you claim depreciation deductions on your Prius. See your tax advisor for more details.
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#340
December 15th 03, 06:13 PM
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"Carl Ellis" wrote in message ... Gig Giacona wrote: And with the advances in science I wouldn't bet the farm that there will never be another marketable Cuban mahogany tree IF there is sufficient demand. Yes, this is an argument that is often made, the market will save us all with advances in technology and science and efficiency. The market serves itself, what is good for the market is not necessarily good for the public. Their interests may intersect but don't bet the farm on it. - Carl - How about an example..
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