If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
I am posting the following for my local glider operation:
"Our Pawnee has two airworthiness certificates, one for normal flying and one, restricted, for towing. When towing it is operated with specific limitations spelled out on an operators handbook supplement. Our tow pilot believes that our Scout should also have a second airworthiness certificate for towing and refuses to tow with it until it does. I need to find another operation that tows with a Scout and get their take on it before I approach the FAA for a finding. My take on it is that it left the factory with a provision for a tow hook so the standard airworthiness certificate covers it." Anyone have an answer to this? |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
On Apr 19, 12:01*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
I am posting the following for my local glider operation: "Our Pawnee has two airworthiness certificates, one for normal flying and one, restricted, for towing. When towing it is operated with specific limitations spelled out on *an operators handbook supplement. Our tow pilot believes that our Scout should also have a second airworthiness certificate for towing and refuses to tow with it until it does. I need to find another operation that tows with a Scout and get their take on it before I approach the FAA for a finding. My take on it is that it left the factory with a provision for a tow hook so the standard airworthiness certificate covers it." Anyone have an answer to this? Ask the factory http://www.amerchampionaircraft.com/ We no longer own one, but towed with a Scout for many years. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
On Apr 19, 11:01*am, Greg Arnold wrote:
I am posting the following for my local glider operation: Anyone have an answer to this? A search of the US registration database for Bellanca 8GCBC returned most aircraft with standard/normal, one restricted/other, 3 restricted/agricultural. That was just in the first hundred found. Significantly: N181TM is registered to Coastal Soaring and is registed standard/ normal. N2510Z is registed to Knauff and Grove and is registered standard/ normal. N4208Y is registered to Scout Towing Company and is registered standard/normal. Even if one of these is the one your tow pilot doesn't want to fly, there are at least 2 others out there that appear to be used for towing on a standard cert. Andy |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
I think you are going about this the wrong way.
The rules are restrictive not permissive, In other words the FARs tell you what you can't do, not what you can. They do sometimes tell you how to do certain things. So instead of trying to find out why you can tow with a Standard Airworthiness certificate, you need to find out why your Tow Pilot, FAA or any other entitity thinks you can not. And they need to show it to you the FARs or Legal interpretations or something simliar. I think the reason your Pawnee has two certificates is probably because Towing is Prohibited on the Agricultural Restricted Certificate. As a result in order to tow it needed a 2nd Airworthiness certfiicate that does not have the Tow prohibition on it. Again this is my guess and close look at the paperwork would be required to say for sure. American Champion sells Factory Tow hooks for Scouts so it would seem odd that additional paperwork would be needed to tow with it, and they would provide it if needed. In fact I believe the kit comes with the required placards and I don't recall any additional paper work to be carried in the airplane. As a CFI I find it amazing how many rules pilots can quote to me that don't exist. Brian |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
Please Define.. Normal Flying.
Our Pawnee can only be certificated in the "Restricted" category. With the changes to the Federal Register, we changed our "Restricted - Agriculture" to Restricted - Glider and Banner Tow" There are some serial numbers of Pawnees that can carry a "Normal" category certificate and there are some serial numbers that can carry multiple categories with different conditions of operation under each category. FAA.GOV and check the Type Certificate Data Sheet. I do not believe that the Scout requires another airworthy certificate to conduct glider tow. An operator would require FAA Approval and Endorsement to conduct banner tow operations, but I have seen nothing that requires an aircraft with a NORMAL or UTILITY Category certificate to also carry a "RESTRICTED - GLIDER TOW" certificate. I don't think the SCOUT has a "RESTRICTED" category approved on the Type Certificate Data Sheet. CAP tows with C-182s with no changes to the TCDS, just the Form 337 to install the tow hook BT "Greg Arnold" wrote in message ... I am posting the following for my local glider operation: "Our Pawnee has two airworthiness certificates, one for normal flying and one, restricted, for towing. When towing it is operated with specific limitations spelled out on an operators handbook supplement. Our tow pilot believes that our Scout should also have a second airworthiness certificate for towing and refuses to tow with it until it does. I need to find another operation that tows with a Scout and get their take on it before I approach the FAA for a finding. My take on it is that it left the factory with a provision for a tow hook so the standard airworthiness certificate covers it." Anyone have an answer to this? |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
On Apr 19, 3:16*pm, "BT" wrote:
I don't think the SCOUT has a "RESTRICTED" category approved on the Type Certificate Data Sheet. There are certainly Bellanca 8GCBC (Scout) aircraft with "restricted" airworthiness certificates. I found 3 restricted/agricultural in a partial search. I don't believe the original TCDS changes if an STC is issued subsequently. I also checked on 2 PA-18-180 that I used to tow with. They were both "restricted" but I believe that was because of the 180 hp engine conversion not the use for towing. They were sold by the glider club several years ago. I wanted to check how they were both registered but both are now "normal" and have 150hp engines so that's inconclusive. I used to tow with an 8GCBC many years ago and do not remember that is was "restricted". That aircraft is no longer registered so I can't check on it. If I were the OP I'd be calling Knauff and Grove for info on their Scout, but maybe finding a different tow pilot would be less trouble. Andy |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
On Apr 19, 3:16*pm, "BT" wrote:
I don't think the SCOUT has a "RESTRICTED" category approved on the Type Certificate Data Sheet. TCDS A21CE Revision 13 American Champion (Bellanca) (Champion) 8KCAB 8GCBC October 14, 2004 Includes the following II - Model 8GCBC, 2 PCLM-SM (Normal Category), Approved April 30, 1974 2 PCLM, (Restricted Category), Approved May 14, 1975 and Maximum Weight Normal Category Landplane and Seaplane, (and Restricted Category Ferry configuration): 2150 lbs. Restricted Category (utilized for chemical dispensing operations): 2600 lbs. This supports the finding that the Scout had a resticted airworthiness cert for ag ops. I suppose I only care because I used to tow with one. Andy |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
On Apr 19, 4:52*pm, Andy wrote:
I suppose I only care because I used to tow with one. But wait - there's more.... Note the bit on multiple airworthiness certs for ag ops - nothing about glider towing Certification Basis Part 23 of the Federal Aviation Regulations dated February 1, 1965, as amended by 23-1 and 23-6 (Normal and Acrobatic Category); and FAR 36, amended thru 39-24, for Model 8KCAB FAR 36, amended thru 36-9, for Model 8GCBC. FAR 36, amended thru 36-24, for Model 8GCBC with MT-Propeller. Part 21.25 of the Federal Aviation Regulations dated February 1, 1965 (Restricted Category), for Model 8GCBC aircraft (S/N 129-75, 135-75 and up). S/N 129-75, 135-75 and up are eligible for Multiple Airworthiness Certification in the Restricted Category when agricultural spray equipment is installed per Bellanca Drawing 7-1492. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
Brian wrote:
I think you are going about this the wrong way. The rules are restrictive not permissive, In other words the FARs tell you what you can't do, not what you can. //snip/ Brian Interesting sentiment. I've heard this said of other systems of rule-making: 1) Anything not expressly permitted, is prohibited. Versus 2) Anything not expressly prohibited, is permitted. I always thought that system 2) was more permissive, in some way. And this is the FAR way, I think you are saying. I never thought of the FARs as being permissive though. :-) Brian W |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Question re towplane airworthiness (USA)
I can understand the restricted category for ag ops for the Scout.. external
drag devices, heavy tanks and pumps added. Many older Pawnees were flying tow with the restricted category for ag ops.. which means it can really only be used for ag ops, not anything else (ferry flights for positioning, maintenance and pilot currency could be flown). A few years ago the Federal Register addressed that and it was covered in many SSA notices. People exchanged their "ag ops" for "Restricted Glider and Banner Tow" for the Pawnee. I still do not think that a "Restricted" certificate is required to conduct glider tow operations with an aircraft operating under a "standard" airworthy certificate in the "Normal or Utility" category. BT "Andy" wrote in message ... On Apr 19, 4:52 pm, Andy wrote: I suppose I only care because I used to tow with one. But wait - there's more.... Note the bit on multiple airworthiness certs for ag ops - nothing about glider towing Certification Basis Part 23 of the Federal Aviation Regulations dated February 1, 1965, as amended by 23-1 and 23-6 (Normal and Acrobatic Category); and FAR 36, amended thru 39-24, for Model 8KCAB FAR 36, amended thru 36-9, for Model 8GCBC. FAR 36, amended thru 36-24, for Model 8GCBC with MT-Propeller. Part 21.25 of the Federal Aviation Regulations dated February 1, 1965 (Restricted Category), for Model 8GCBC aircraft (S/N 129-75, 135-75 and up). S/N 129-75, 135-75 and up are eligible for Multiple Airworthiness Certification in the Restricted Category when agricultural spray equipment is installed per Bellanca Drawing 7-1492. |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
FAA Inspection for New Airworthiness | PS | Soaring | 8 | July 8th 09 03:27 PM |
Experimental Airworthiness | PS | Soaring | 13 | July 1st 09 03:54 PM |
TBO and airworthiness | Jim Stewart | Owning | 26 | April 17th 07 05:05 PM |
A question on Airworthiness Inspection | Dave S | Home Built | 1 | August 10th 04 05:07 AM |
Exhibition/Racing Airworthiness Certificate Question | bsquared | Soaring | 5 | June 22nd 04 06:24 PM |