Flying under IMC

"Peter Bauer" wrote in message
om...
But what ...when descending under VMC into Class G Airspace and then
coming into IMC "wheather" (e.g. fog,..) then i can fly IFR without a
clearance ???
If a second pilot does the same "plan" .... very dangerous, isn't it ?

As Jose says, you can easily avoid other pilots flying IFR in Class G by not
doing it yourself. Airports with instrument approaches also have Class E
surface areas, preventing anyone from flying IFR without a clearance and
flight plan in IMC at those airports. So as long as YOU stick to making
arrivals only through published instrument approaches, you'll avoid any
nut-case trying to do it on their own.

(No offense intended to any nut-cases out there that actually go around
flying IFR without a clearance or flight plan in IMC while in Class G ).

i can really fly VFR under an IFR-Flight Plan ??

Well, sort of. You are still flying IFR (that is, under "instrument flight
rules") while on a "VFR on top" clearance. So you have to comply with
applicable IFR rules, *and* applicable VFR rules. Notably, your cruising
altitude changes to the +500' altitudes, and you are required to maintain
the proper cloud clearances and visibility. But other IFR rules still
apply, like proper notification to ATC of equipment failures, airspeed
changes, reporting points, that sort of thing.

But probably with the same "squawk" as under IFR ?

Yes...you are still flying IFR, on an IFR flight plan, and maintain the same
squawk code you'd have without the "VFR on top" clearance.

..and then after getting "tired" flying VFR ..changing back to the
initial IFR Flight Plan ? (what is when too far away under VFR flying
from the "filed" Plan ???

In order to quit the "VFR on top" clearance, if you have left your original
route, you won't get a clearance to return to normal IFR flight until ATC
can arrange a new routing for you from your position. Generally, it's
advisable to stay reasonably close to your planned route, since off-airways
can be challenging to plan for IMC while you're busy actually flying the
plane.

Personally, I make sure I'm back on my planned route before going back to
non-"VFR on top" flight.

Does ATC give me then another "Plan", an "abbreviated" Flight Plan ?

Yes, basically. If you're not on your planned route, you'll probably get a
vector or "direct" to a navaid to get you back to some place where ATC can
get you back into their system. In my experience, this has always been some
waypoint already on my IFR flight plan...ATC basically just looks to bring
you back to your filed plan, unless you request otherwise.

Well, i haven't known about this......because i'm only an PP-ASEL
withoutIFR-Privileges. But the described possibilitites makes it very
interesting getting an IFR-Pilot ;-)

For what it's worth, there's also a rec.aviation.ifr newsgroup. I don't
follow it because frankly I read too many newsgroups as it is. There are
probably others here who are instrument rated and who don't follow that
newsgroup, but that's really the place to go to find people who are not just
willing, but who are eager to talk about instrument flying.

Pete

Hi,

i'm based in Germany with a FAA-PPL ASEL.
It's very interesting to read the differences in IFR-Flying in the
States and in Germany. Although the two countries are "ICAO-countries"
they are not
participating in same air work to each other.
Well, i think ...when learning for an IFR-Rating you should know
before what you are allowed to do with it or not after passing it.
I think most "VFR"-Pilots only know about the new ability to fly in
clouds without reference of the ground surface.
It's very interesting for me to know how the real IFR-flight is
working, what problems with ATC you have when flying under IFR, the
change IFR-VFR, and a lot of other things....and that....before
"doing" the Rating.

Thank you all for asking my questions....

Peter

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Peter Duniho wrote:

the "VFR on top" clearance to resolve
whatever issue ATC had, and allow yourself to proceed directly to
whereever you were headed.

Is that likely to work? ATC may, after all, deny the "on top" clearance.

They might in very busy terminal airspace that you are inbound to. They
will be gleeful that you want to remove yourself from the separation pool
otherwise.

Ditch wrote:

Is that likely to work?

I fly IFR into Ontario, California IFR on my run and do it VFR on top as
much as possible. It cuts down on our run time as we fly a more direct
route, and since we are on a schedule it helps a lot.

ATC may, after all, deny the "on top" clearance.

They can, but unlikely. It frees up the controller to focus on other
things.


That certainly makes sense. But what about when I want to return to (let's
call it) "full IFR". I could be well off my flight plan at that point,
right? It may mean less work in the short term, but possibly more work
long term (for the controller).

Of course, perhaps the controller can hope that this'll be the next guy's
problem laugh.

- Andrew

"Peter Bauer" wrote in message
om...

i'm based in Germany with a FAA-PPL ASEL.
It's very interesting to read the differences in IFR-Flying in the
States and in Germany. Although the two countries are "ICAO-countries"
they are not
participating in same air work to each other.

If you think Germany and the US are different, try crossing the border into
other European countries. Of all of them the airspace system in Germany is
most like the US, and the UK is probably at the opposite extreme. Here we
have mostly class A and class G, with little between. IFR flight in class G
is something we do every day -- there's not a lot of choice.

Good luck if you choose to do the IR.

Julian

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
That certainly makes sense. But what about when I want to return to
(let's
call it) "full IFR". I could be well off my flight plan at that point,
right? It may mean less work in the short term, but possibly more work
long term (for the controller).

It's more of a problem for you than the controller. The controller will
only provide a clearance that he is able to provide. If you put yourself
into a position where he's unable to provide you with a new clearance,
that's your problem, not his. He's not obligated to cancel the "VFR on top"
clearance, as far as I know.

In other words, it's more work for YOU, if you make it more work for anyone.
Personally, I recognize the issues of getting back on a non-"VFR on top"
clearance and make sure that when it's time to get back to regular IFR, it's
easy to do.

Pete

Julian,

most like the US, and the UK is probably at the opposite extreme. Here we
have mostly class A and class G, with little between. IFR flight in class
G
is something we do every day -- there's not a lot of choice.

IIRC in the UK you have some sort of "poor-mans-IFR" (no pun intended ;-)
called the "IMC" rating, giving you the right to fly under IMC without being
"in-the-system".

Does that thing make it to JAR-FCL?

Best Regards

Kai Glaesner

"Kai Glaesner" wrote in message
...

IIRC in the UK you have some sort of "poor-mans-IFR" (no pun intended ;-)
called the "IMC" rating, giving you the right to fly under IMC without
being
"in-the-system".

Does that thing make it to JAR-FCL?

Still available as a national rating valid for IFR only in the UK. The only
difference from the way it used to be is that it no longer gives credit
towards an IR. However, an FAA IR gives credit towards a JAA IR, and the
instrument time for an IMC rating counts for the time required for an FAA
IR. So we have the screwy situation that the usual "upgrade" path is IMC
rating - FAA IR - JAA IR.

Julian Scarfe

Julian,

IR. So we have the screwy situation that the usual "upgrade" path is IMC
rating - FAA IR - JAA IR.

That's what I call "european harmonization".... ;-)

Any estimates available what to spend on an IR (starting from a national
PPL) in the UK? Here in germany they charge you around 13.000 EUR for that.

Best regards

Kai

Peter Duniho wrote:

He's not obligated to cancel the "VFR on
top" clearance, as far as I know.

Ah, I'd not thought about it that way. It's not a comforting thought: that
I could be above a ceiling and unable to return to full IFR. There's no
regulatory requirement that would force a controller to let a VFR-on-top-er
back into the system?

- Andrew