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Hawk Wind



 
 
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  #31  
Old May 3rd 21, 03:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Hawk Wind

I gotta ask: If the Butterfly vario was so great, why was it discontinued?

Dan
5J

On 5/2/21 4:59 PM, waremark wrote:
On Sunday, 2 May 2021 at 06:58:35 UTC+1, Matthew Scutter wrote:

Would you expect it to function meaningfully differently in the flatlands? Circling wind should work just fine in a homogenous atmosphere, so functioning the same would be ideal.
Similarly I would be surprised if there was improvement in variometer function from an existing well-compensated setup. All I would wish for additionally from my existing variometer is that it would read accurately in the first second of the pullup into a thermal.


Some Butterfly users reported that as you circle in a thermal you can see the wind indicators pointing in from all directions to the centre of the thermal. As to the vario, as someone else has mentioned the key aspiration is for a system which differentiates vertical gusts from horizontal gusts better than a TE vario. Again, the Butterfly was supposed to achieve this.

  #32  
Old May 3rd 21, 04:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Hawk Wind

I'd agree that the pneumatic variometry on the Air Glide S is not markedly better than the other offerings, this is well trodden technology. To get any advantage you need to learn to use the inertial variometry and the instantaneous wind. And I say "learn to use" because it is a new skill requiring conscious effort. Wavelets, convergence lines, and transient winds for glides can be identified from the display itself, thermal cores really require using iGlide to see the plot. The inertial variometer requires a lot of study to make use of. I think many pilots do not put this work into it, so any other variometer is as good. I have both the Air Glide and a CN variometer in the panel, for normal stuff the CN is as good - but it misses out entirely on the dynamics of wind, and in a rough or irregular thermal the usable core is better identified by iGlide and the Air.
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 4:26:10 AM UTC-7, Matthew Scutter wrote:
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 3:53:58 PM UTC+10, krasw wrote:
On Sunday, 2 May 2021 at 08:58:35 UTC+3, Matthew Scutter wrote:
You need to get a used Air GlideS someday.

Actually I flew about 1000 hours with one and found it no better than my CAI302 or even my Winter.... I did not take it across to my new panel. Yes, I read the installation manual, adjusted all the calibrations, I even tried a remote install on the CG above the spars, far from any metal or electric fields, yes I read the myriad of unofficial PDF alternative operating instructions. Glad to hear it worked for you though.

  #33  
Old May 3rd 21, 09:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nicholas Kennedy
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Default Hawk Wind

Like Matt Scutter said I don't think we've come real far in the wind reading dept since the CAI 302/303.
I Watch Brunos panel in his vids and IMHO opinion his varios are way too wild for me to try using.
I still fly behind the the 302/303 combo.
It gives no less than 4 wind indications and I find them all to be very accurate.
Comparing them to my Seeyou mobile in flight they often are very well matched up.
1. It gives Fast Component winds, updated every second in straight line flight.
This function has helped me find the core hundreds of times.
2. Average headwind Tailwind averaged over 30 seconds.
3.Vector wind, updated when the glider turns at least 30 degrees.
4.Relative wind direction. This is the direction of the wind relative to the gliders GPS Track over the ground.
I think the 302 was so far ahead of its time, it was digital. Never needed a software update they got it right the first time out
Totally adjustable in flight for needle and sound response and TE compensation.
Gary Kammer still has parts and services these units. I just got mine serviced and a recalibration sheet for this season.

Nick
T

  #34  
Old May 3rd 21, 10:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Hawk Wind

All those means of wind sensing use the same principle and math, so I don't doubt they would agree. They would not agree with an Air Glide S. I'm quite familiar with what the Cambridge will do, having flown with one for many years (and SeeYou mobile, Winpilot, S10, XCSoar, CN, etc). Like others using the same methods, they are pretty accurate at winds averaged over longer intervals. Short period variations they miss completely. Hopefully the Hawk is better.
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 1:05:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Like Matt Scutter said I don't think we've come real far in the wind reading dept since the CAI 302/303.
I Watch Brunos panel in his vids and IMHO opinion his varios are way too wild for me to try using.
I still fly behind the the 302/303 combo.
It gives no less than 4 wind indications and I find them all to be very accurate.
Comparing them to my Seeyou mobile in flight they often are very well matched up.
1. It gives Fast Component winds, updated every second in straight line flight.
This function has helped me find the core hundreds of times.
2. Average headwind Tailwind averaged over 30 seconds.
3.Vector wind, updated when the glider turns at least 30 degrees.
4.Relative wind direction. This is the direction of the wind relative to the gliders GPS Track over the ground.
I think the 302 was so far ahead of its time, it was digital. Never needed a software update they got it right the first time out
Totally adjustable in flight for needle and sound response and TE compensation.
Gary Kammer still has parts and services these units. I just got mine serviced and a recalibration sheet for this season.

Nick
T

  #35  
Old May 4th 21, 02:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
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Posts: 319
Default Hawk Wind

On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 1:05:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Like Matt Scutter said I don't think we've come real far in the wind reading dept since the CAI 302/303.
I Watch Brunos panel in his vids and IMHO opinion his varios are way too wild for me to try using.
I still fly behind the the 302/303 combo.
It gives no less than 4 wind indications and I find them all to be very accurate.
Comparing them to my Seeyou mobile in flight they often are very well matched up.
1. It gives Fast Component winds, updated every second in straight line flight.
This function has helped me find the core hundreds of times.
2. Average headwind Tailwind averaged over 30 seconds.
3.Vector wind, updated when the glider turns at least 30 degrees.
4.Relative wind direction. This is the direction of the wind relative to the gliders GPS Track over the ground.
I think the 302 was so far ahead of its time, it was digital. Never needed a software update they got it right the first time out
Totally adjustable in flight for needle and sound response and TE compensation.
Gary Kammer still has parts and services these units. I just got mine serviced and a recalibration sheet for this season.

Nick
T

If you change the filter setting in the Air-Avionics Vario you can make them un wild easily. I flew with the 302 also and I believe the LXNAV Varios. and Air-Avionics vario are a huge improvement.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com
  #36  
Old May 4th 21, 06:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Hawk Wind

On Sunday, May 2, 2021 at 10:53:58 PM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Sunday, 2 May 2021 at 08:58:35 UTC+3, Matthew Scutter wrote:
Would you expect it to function meaningfully differently in the flatlands? Circling wind should work just fine in a homogenous atmosphere, so functioning the same would be ideal.

Matthew, this is what we thought of wind for last 100 years. Now that we can measure it accurately with 1Hz sampling rate, it has proven to anything but homogenous. Thermal does not move with wind (because lower momentum of mass flow of air from surface, millions of kg/minute). Thermal creates plume of rising air, but also a plume of slower moving air. When you measure wind while thermalling, you are measuring this. When leaving thermal, you will fly into stronger wind. Ever had that feeling on headwind final glide that glider just does not want to stay on glide path unless you find lift? You flew into stronger headwind without knowing it. When arriving under cloud, you will most likely fly into lower wind area before flying into thermal. This can be used to your advantage. No need to make those searching turns yet unless the wind calmed down first.
Similarly I would be surprised if there was improvement in variometer function from an existing well-compensated setup. All I would wish for additionally from my existing variometer is that it would read accurately in the first second of the pullup into a thermal.

Inertial variometer does exactly this, gives a quantitative reading of the gust you feel in your seat. You need to get a used Air GlideS someday.


If this were the case then I would immediately see a stronger wind, as measured by the difference between true airspeed and GPS ground speed, upon leaving the thermal. I do not see this, ever. And I am monitoring it on virtually every thermal. This way of measuring wind does only give me the headwind component, but I get it in real time. If I want to check the direction I can turn until the difference is maximized. This only takes a few seconds. Most of the time I don't need to do this.

I intend to try out Hawk for a trial and see what difference it makes.

Tom
  #37  
Old May 4th 21, 09:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jax
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Posts: 9
Default Hawk Wind

In my experience the wind on the Airglide (even that it does not seem 100% accurate) provides very useful information, I mostly use the difference between the circling wind from XCSoar and the airglide wind. It is most useful flying convergences when you are not near the top part of the convection layer.

My conclusion is that the normal vario ie: the black triangle does not use the inertial platform, the blue ball on the other hand uses both the pneumatic and inertial platform.
I found the blue ball is usually a leading indicator but it is not 100% reliable, yet it can be very useful in certain circumstances.

The people that only listen to the vario (which is what we do 99% of the time) and think the Airglide vario is nothing special are perfectly correct. The sound is the black triangle, often I would prefer it to be on the blue ball but sadly we can't change it.

All in all the Airglide is my prefered vario, it is not a game changer but it is a very high quality device, very intuitive interface, it has all the info needed displayed in a simple and readable format (except for the too small wind arrow) it has a very pleasant tone with a subtle volume increase between tones rather than a harsh on/off plus it has the extra wind and inertial platform that gives the extra info when you dare bringing your eyes inside the cockpit. An Airglide with HUD focussed to horizon would be perfect

  #38  
Old May 4th 21, 11:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Aldo Cernezzi
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Posts: 9
Default Hawk Wind

I'm wondering if the Hawk upgrade will provide the same results when installed in the LX9000 series as when installed in the S10/S100 vario units. I wouldn't want to pay for an upgrade that works less effectively than intended: I'd rather upgrade the V9 vario to an S100.

My LX9000 already has the AHRS option (payed), so I'm wondering if Hawk will have lower price in this case (but I guess not, as the company says AHRS is a required function, but it may remain "hidden" to the pilot if they don't but that option).

A simpler option would be the Anemoi standalone device. It requires a power supply and simple pneumatic connections to the existing tubings. It will only calculate wind vectors (plus free AHRS), while skipping on the inertial vario functions. All based on similar sensor-fusion technology and extended Kalman filter.

When flying in the mountains, instant wind vector display is an absolute advantage. In the flatland, an averaged calculation may be satisfactory. I used to be a big Zander fan (magnetic compass interface, almost completely free from the unsolvable problems created by flux-gate compasses). Now I'm happy to see a new generation of promising devices.


Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

  #39  
Old May 4th 21, 11:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Aldo Cernezzi
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Posts: 9
Default Hawk Wind

Il giorno martedì 4 maggio 2021 alle 10:13:25 UTC+2 Jax ha scritto:

The people that only listen to the vario (which is what we do 99% of the time) and think the Airglide vario is nothing special are perfectly correct.. The sound is the black triangle, often I would prefer it to be on the blue ball but sadly we can't change it.



That's a very interesting observation. Thanks!

Aldo
  #40  
Old May 5th 21, 07:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Christoph Barniske
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Posts: 11
Default Hawk Wind

Marc Förderer once told me that in SC mode, the audio signal reflects the airmass indicator (blue ball). He recommended to set the airmass mixer to 100% inertial, airmass filter to 3.4s and SC filter to 0.

Christoph



Aldo Cernezzi schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Mai 2021 um 00:38:35 UTC+2:
Il giorno martedì 4 maggio 2021 alle 10:13:25 UTC+2 Jax ha scritto:

The people that only listen to the vario (which is what we do 99% of the time) and think the Airglide vario is nothing special are perfectly correct. The sound is the black triangle, often I would prefer it to be on the blue ball but sadly we can't change it.

That's a very interesting observation. Thanks!

Aldo

 




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