Another Frustrated Student Pilot

In response to those who suggested that perhaps the other frustrated student
was too fearful to proceed, there ARE other things that get in the way of a
person's desire to fly. Maybe not to the point of making a "promising student"
quit, but at least to cause a significant setback! Here's my story:

I began airplane instruction in August in a Cessna. No one has been more
devoted than I, beginning with the ground school and getting the written exam
out of the way, then being available whenever my instructor suggested we fly
and spending countless hours reading and studying at home.

In October, just after I soloed, little things started to go wrong with the
airplane, not significant enough to ground us, but things that needed attention
nonetheless: nav lights out (aren't they supposed to be disconnected and
labeled inoperative?), primer frozen shut (POH says to use the primer, not pump
the throttle), nosewheel is dry and cracked, and radio was intermittent and
even cut out completely once on my CFI and me. This was the biggest source of
worry for ME, as a new solo pilot, not only because I did not want to have to
deal with a failed radio during initial solo flights, but also because ATCs
made no secret that they were understandably annoyed with our garbled radio
transmissions. The last thing a new solo pilot needs is to have ATCs annoyed
with them! After repeatedly being told to "jiggle the switch" and spray contact
cleaner into the jacks, they finally got the radio working dependably again.
The other issues remained unresolved.

Recently, the airplane was down for four days for its 100-hr
inspection/maintenance. My CFI and I were the first scheduled to fly it
afterwards. Not only were none of the previously mentioned squawks resolved,
but run-up revealed a dead vacuum pump and a significant magneto/plug problem
on the right with rough-running engine.

At that point, I refused to continue to fly the airplane and wrote a letter to
my CFI listing my maintenance concerns and referencing how many pilots have
said "don't ignore what the airplane is telling you!" My CFI forwarded my
letter to the owners of the airplane and the airplane was subsequently grounded
for another week. I received a copy of the response to my CFI from one of the
owners. He was defensive about the problems with the airplane and about the
competency of his mechanic.

But the real kicker was that he made me sound like some kind of wacko for
suggesting that I was "connected enough" with the airplane to hear it "talking"
to me and went on to point out that it is just a machine and that things go
wrong and need fixing! Well, DUH! It isn't as if I hear voices!! -- I know full
well that it is a machine and that things need fixing -- that's PRECISELY the
point. If those little things that are too insignificant to fix in a 3-month
period are not addressed in a 100-hr, how confident is a student pilot supposed
to feel about the competency of the maintenance or about what priority
maintenance is given by the CFI, owners, or school?

I don't think it's unusual for some new solo pilots to have some
fears--confidence builds the more you fly. While the CFI and the flight school
have no control over demons at play inside a student's brain, they ARE capable
and in control of eliminating as many safety concerns as possible by assuring
that maintenance issues with the airplane are addressed in a reasonable, timely
way.

Is it reasonable for a student to expect that airplane coming out of a 100-hr
or an annual should have fewer squawks than it did going in? If old squawks
remain unaddressed after a 100-hr, should a student take a stand? or should
he/she ignore their own growing concerns and continue to fly the airplane
because the CFI and the school don't seem concerned? While I did ultimately
take a stand, I feel it should have been up to my CFI to speak up about the
maintenance on behalf of ALL the students, not up to one of the students.

In response to my letter, my CFI called to say my letter was forwarded to the
owners of the airplane and that I needed to find someone else to fly with. I
also received a cc of the letter the owners wrote back to my CFI and a refund
of the unused portion of $$ I had paid them. They obviously want nothing
further to do with me -- why? for taking a stand about my own safety?

I need more solo, the cross-countries, night and hood time. I have other
options available ... but my point in writing all of this is that things that
halt a student's progress are not always in the head of the student. CFIs and
flight schools drop the ball holding up responsibilities on their end too, even
with the most promising students! It is discouraging, to say the least, when
you are motivated to push ahead but find yourself having to make the decision
to leave and go elsewhere or to quit.

Another Frustrated Student Pilot

"OutofRudder" wrote in message

They obviously want nothing
further to do with me -- why? for taking a stand about my own safety?

Sure sounds like it.

However, one just has to question why your CFI (whom you pay), the FBO (whom
you pay), and the owners (whom you pay) all seem to be against you in this
matter. If everything you say in this post is absolutely true then I'd tell
all of them to **** up a rope. Then I'd tell any students that use this
outfit your ordeal and do my damndest to put them out of business. My
conscious would not let me be idle while when lives are at stake. This kind
of treatment is ridiculous.

However, Occam's Razor suggests that there may be more to your story than
you elude to here. Perhaps you approached all these people in a less than
diplomatic manner. Perhaps the problems aren't quite as serious as you
describe. Perhaps you are generally a butt-wipe and hard to get along with.

Sure doesn't sound like it in your post but perhaps an honest assessment of
yourself is warranted if you wish to continue your training.

. . . And perhaps not. Just go somewhere else.

--
Jim Fisher

"Jim Fisher" groupaddy said:

one just has to question why your CFI (whom you
pay), the FBO (whom you pay), and the owners
(whom you pay) all seem to be against you in this
matter.

I've asked myself the same question. All I can come up with is that no one
likes whistle-blowing. Up until now, I'm not sure which, if any, of these
maintenance issues were documented since the airplane carries no squawk sheet.
In fact I was even told on more than one occasion that the mechanic simply
"forgot".

Perhaps you approached all these people in a less
than diplomatic manner. Perhaps the problems
aren't quite as serious as you describe.

On the contrary, I couldn't have been MORE diplomatic! It's true that probably
MOST schools would not ground the airplane for a primer that won't open or a
tire that is dry and cracked, and I'm betting there are airplanes that only fly
during the day with inperable nav lights. While these items were evident
*every* time I did a preflight, I never made any demands about them. After the
100-hr, however, I felt enough slack had been given. In fact, the owner
suggested that those bulbs burn out from students flicking them on and off
during every preflight. If it's only a burned-out bulb, isn't that easy enough
to fix? Aren't they supposed to be operable whether in use or not?

I even went so far as to say in my letter that I felt our safety (not just
mine)--my CFI, mine, and the other student that I knew was flying the
airplane--were all more important to me than any rating. That doesn't mean I
don't care if I complete the training and get the license, just not if it means
having to ignore what appears, as far as I can see, to be a lack of concern for
maintenance.

Perhaps you are generally a butt-wipe and hard
to get along with. Sure doesn't sound like it in
your post but perhaps an honest assessment of
yourself is warranted if you wish to continue your
training.

This is exactly what I did before writing the letter. I thought long and hard,
but could not get past the feeling that if I didn't take a stand and somebody
got hurt, I would never forgive myself. As for me being a "butt wipe and hard
to get along with", maybe part of why this became such a huge issue is because
I kept my concerns to myself for too long. I did bring up those relatively
minor issues on prior occasions, but my CFI had a dismissive attitude about
them. I could accept that on a temporary basis, but not when the airplane comes
out of a 4-day 100-hr with NONE of them being resolved. and with even more
major things wrong in addition.

Just go somewhere else.

Looking into that now. Wasn't really asking for advice so much as just pointing
out, after it being suggested that the previous frustrated student was fearful,
that CFIs and schools sometimes contribute to rather than eliminate student
apprehensions.

In response to those who suggested that perhaps the other frustrated
student
was too fearful to proceed, there ARE other things that get in the way of
a
person's desire to fly.

Flying is a very funny business that way.

Most people in aviation claim to be starving, but -- I suppose because
flying tends to attract a self-selected group of over-achieving, cocky
folks -- they seem to do everything possible to drive newbies away. It's
almost like watching an abused woman who flees from one abusive guy to the
next, all the while claiming to be "looking for love." You just start to
wonder what the hell they are THINKING when they act the way they do.

Roger Long has many stories to tell about the bizarre, head-in-the-sand
approach to maintenance that his flying club had, prior to his active
participation. And I've personally run into the elitist, "you're not one of
the crowd" attitude from supposed "old timers" at the airport, guaranteed to
scare away all but the most stubborn of students. It takes a long time to
"break in" to that clique, and I think it tends to shoo away a lot of
potential pilots.

Also, because there is very little structure to any of the FBO-run flight
schools, students are often left adrift, bouncing from one CFI to another.
The successful flying schools avoid all of these problems, and have a
welcoming, open atmosphere, with professional CFIs and well-maintained
aircraft. They *are* out there -- you've just got to find them.

This is why most pilots will tell you that at some point they had a true
mentor, someone who guided them through the Byzantine and frustrating
avenues of flying and aircraft ownership, on their way to achieving their
ticket.

But they can be hard to find. Which is another good reason to visit these
groups early and often. I wish they were required reading for ALL potential
flight students -- there is much to be learned here.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jim Fisher" wrote in message ...
"OutofRudder" wrote in message

They obviously want nothing
further to do with me -- why? for taking a stand about my own safety?

Sure sounds like it.

However, one just has to question why your CFI (whom you pay), the FBO (whom
you pay), and the owners (whom you pay) all seem to be against you in this
matter. If everything you say in this post is absolutely true then I'd tell
all of them to **** up a rope. Then I'd tell any students that use this
outfit your ordeal and do my damndest to put them out of business. My
conscious would not let me be idle while when lives are at stake. This kind
of treatment is ridiculous.

However, Occam's Razor suggests that there may be more to your story than
you elude to here. Perhaps you approached all these people in a less than
diplomatic manner. Perhaps the problems aren't quite as serious as you
describe. Perhaps you are generally a butt-wipe and hard to get along with.

Sure doesn't sound like it in your post but perhaps an honest assessment of
yourself is warranted if you wish to continue your training.

. . . And perhaps not. Just go somewhere else.

I witnessed last month one of the most appauling exaples of behaviour
by a CFI. I was in the study room minding my business when mature
student came in with his CFI. The CFI immediately began the debrief
with a verbal assault. He accused the student of lying to him when it
appeared that when flying a manoevre the student was under so much
pressure he said yes to soemthing when he meant no (we have all been
there). At this stage I had to leave the room because it was so
embarassing. It was embarrsing for me to have to listen to such a jerk
but it was even more embarassing for the student (aged 50) being
spoken to by a 25 year old snot.

Half an hour later I went back and the abuse was still going on.
anyway it eventually stopped and when we went off for a coffee I said
to the student that the CFI was lucky because if he had spoken to me
like that then I would have decked him. He is like me we fly for fun
and having some jerk behave like that is one way to decide to spend
your money elsewhere. I suggested that he ask for a new CFI because
there was no viable relationship between them.

How much of a jerk this CFI turned out to be was as the school was
closing he went out to the aircraft to switch off the fuel cock on the
152 with the aim of catching the student out in the morning.

Anyway I rang the student and tipped him off. Next thing I knew he had
changed to my CFI who was OK but then I had to break him in a bit
about attitude. These hour builder CFIs dont take the time to learn
about people.

I wandered of the centerline on one night take off and he said that
"they must have put a new runway in down there". I was a bit busy so I
said what do you mean? he said you have moved off the center line. I
said OK, if thats what you meant to say then cut out the sarcastic
remarks.

It bad enough learning to night fly without having to decrypt riddles
and cryptic clues. If CFIs need to get off on sarcasm they they should
quit instructing.

After all, they need the trainee pilots more than the trainees need
them.

Now there are many CFIs who are just great where they have the art of
communication down to just that an art. My best ever CFI was an
elementary school teacher. He could teach, his explanaitions were
clear, his demonstrations matched his explainations and he could fly
really well. But as a communicator he has never been surpassed yet by
any other instructor I have had the pleasure to fly with. One has come
close mind you and he was taught to instruct by this guy.

Been there, done that, bought the tee shirt.

It comes down to a number of things ...

Some pilots like you and me are 'perfectionists' - we try to do things as
accurately as possible - when something goes wrong, we expect it to be
fixed - no more, no less. We have high standards, and get annoyed at others
who seem to have an attitude that's so laid back it's positively scary.

Most CFIs have quite a few hours - and they're comfortable (perhaps too
comfortable) to the point where they're more than happy to compensate for
(what they perceive to be 'minor shortcomings') - in many cases these
maintenance issues AREN'T a big deal in terms of risk to the CFI - but for a
student it raises the anxiety level a notch and (more importantly) limits
their options should something go wrong. Often, CFI's don't appreciate this
part.

Owners on the other hand often want to spend the least amount of $$$
possible - in many (most?) cases the aircraft are old - parts / labour is
expensive - and there is a constant stream of minor things always needing to
be fixed. They say that the way to get a little money out of aviation is to
start with a lot of money and watch it disappear - it might cost twice as
much to get rid of all the niggles as opposed to doing enough to make sure
it's basically safe, but not perfect - unfortunately, that's the real world.
If they spend more on maintenance they have to charge more (or they'll end
up subsidising your flying) - if they charge more they run the risk of
losing out to competitors who have planes that are less well maintained, but
also cost less. (When someone is considering renting a plane, the $$$ is
readily available to compare - the degree of maintenance isn't)

For us pilots, it's frustrating - I've had that many gripes with on-going
maintenance issues that many a time I'm temped to say 'stuff the lot of you'
and go 'invest' in my own aircraft (so that I can get it maintained to 100%
serviceability) - and yes, many many times the aircraft come out of
maintenance with issues they didn't have going in) (pitot hoses fouling
control columns / D doors attempting to sever brake hoses to name a couple)

My advice would be to examine your concerns as objectively as possible -
seeking advice from others who's judgement you respect as to whether or not
a particular issue is something that you're prepared to fly with. If it is,
then fly it - if it's not, flag it and walk away.

In your case ...

Nav lights So long as it's not being flown at night, I wouldn't consider
it to be a 'biggie' in this part of the world

Primer With throttle priming you run the risk of an induction system
fire if the aircraft back fires. Personally I'd use the throttle the start
the engine (carefully) to get me from a remote back to base, but I would
expect it to be fixed (at the latest) at the next scheduled servicing. It
would make an interesting insurance claim if the aircraft were destroyed by
an induction fire due to throttle priming with the primer inop.

Front tyre Hard to say (can't tell condition) - comes down to whether or
not it's safe.

Radio I understand your frustration - and agree with you. Bad radios
contribute so much to everyone's stress levels it's not funny. You need to
be sure it IS the radio (not audio panel or headset connector being dirty
etc) - but either way you need solid 2 way communications (although this
seldom ever seems to happen on a consistent basis) Consider purchasing your
own handheld (such as an Icom A23 as a backup - useful in other situations
as well).

Vacuum pump / Mags No question - needs to be fixed before flight.

Just my 10c worth

CC

OutofRudder wrote:

nav lights out (aren't they supposed to be disconnected and labeled inoperative?),

Don't think so, but you can't fly at night without them. Of course, you shouldn't
be up at night at this stage anyway.

primer frozen shut (POH says to use the primer, not pump the throttle),

IMO, this is serious. Many fires occur by pumping the throttle of an updraft
carb.

nosewheel is dry and cracked,

This isn't necessarily a problem. As long as the cracks don't go as deep as the
casing, the tire is fine.

and radio was intermittent and even cut out completely once on my CFI and me.

Unless you're flying out of controlled airports, this is good experience. Radios
are optional.

Not only were none of the previously mentioned squawks resolved,
but run-up revealed a dead vacuum pump and a significant magneto/plug problem
on the right with rough-running engine.

You can't expect the 100 hour to catch a bad vacuum pump - it's not on the list
of items to inspect, but the ignition system is. My plane came out of annual with
a miss-timed mag once, and I never took it back to that shop. Of course, what you
describe could be a fouled plug, as far as I know. Do you know exactly what the
problem was?

Is it reasonable for a student to expect that airplane coming out of a 100-hr
or an annual should have fewer squawks than it did going in?

Not necessarily. The purpose of the inspection is to determine the airworthiness
of the plane, not find everything wrong with it. There is a list of items the A&P
is supposed to check. Radios are not on there. Tires and magneto timing are.

I feel it should have been up to my CFI to speak up about the
maintenance on behalf of ALL the students, not up to one of the students.

Lessee here - when you complained to these guys, they told you where to go. You
seriously expect the CFI to risk his job over your concerns? If the CFI felt that
the plane was dangerous, he might complain about it for his own sake, but don't
expect him to back you up if he's willing to take the risk.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Well most all of you know what i went through with my flight school. The
funny thing is they call me and say they finally got an airplane Piper Arrow
$97 & Cessna 172 On the way from some place (not a new one like they were
supposed to get) then they say we will give you a great deal on them well i
go there and my go the rental rates are insane.

I am paying $72 an hour for a 172 they want $90 an hour for an older plane
told them i will not rent from them unless they can be competitive with
others. What about this great deal they offered me for losing the airplane
at the end of my training a week before checkride? no mention of that! I
would rather rent a local plane with fading paint a$72 then pay them $90 for
same type of plane hell they want $67 for a 150 they $52 everyware else. I
don't see them in business long with them rates. Ohh arrow is in the shop
with problems not avaiable yet go figure.

Things break and if you feel it is unsafe don't fly it...................
Use google groups to see about the 150 i thought was unsafe and i refused to
fly & few hours prior to 100 hour inspection compression check they end up
replacing a piston and barrel. i still will not fly that plane still think
it is unsafe! As being a pilot its your call to make the Go or No-Go
decision.

Ohh my old CFI did not get his airline job but he can try back in 6 mo's.

Don't give up i know i had my doubts and was almost ready to give it up but
things worked out and i ended up earning my ticket after lot of
encouragement and advice from the people on usenet. I sat down and adding up
how much i already spent and how much time i put in to it i was at the point
of no return either finish now or spend more time and money later on playing
catch up. I cut my losses with my flight school and went else ware to finish
up there is always another CFI to that is willing to take your money and
another fbo that will rent to you. All i can say is finish it you will be
glad you did nothing like going to the airport with family and friends &
flying



"OutofRudder" wrote in message
...
In response to those who suggested that perhaps the other frustrated
student
was too fearful to proceed, there ARE other things that get in the way of
a
person's desire to fly. Maybe not to the point of making a "promising
student"
quit, but at least to cause a significant setback! Here's my story:

I began airplane instruction in August in a Cessna. No one has been more
devoted than I, beginning with the ground school and getting the written
exam
out of the way, then being available whenever my instructor suggested we
fly
and spending countless hours reading and studying at home.

In October, just after I soloed, little things started to go wrong with
the
airplane, not significant enough to ground us, but things that needed
attention
nonetheless: nav lights out (aren't they supposed to be disconnected and
labeled inoperative?), primer frozen shut (POH says to use the primer, not
pump
the throttle), nosewheel is dry and cracked, and radio was intermittent
and
even cut out completely once on my CFI and me. This was the biggest source
of
worry for ME, as a new solo pilot, not only because I did not want to have
to
deal with a failed radio during initial solo flights, but also because
ATCs
made no secret that they were understandably annoyed with our garbled
radio
transmissions. The last thing a new solo pilot needs is to have ATCs
annoyed
with them! After repeatedly being told to "jiggle the switch" and spray
contact
cleaner into the jacks, they finally got the radio working dependably
again.
The other issues remained unresolved.

Recently, the airplane was down for four days for its 100-hr
inspection/maintenance. My CFI and I were the first scheduled to fly it
afterwards. Not only were none of the previously mentioned squawks
resolved,
but run-up revealed a dead vacuum pump and a significant magneto/plug
problem
on the right with rough-running engine.

At that point, I refused to continue to fly the airplane and wrote a
letter to
my CFI listing my maintenance concerns and referencing how many pilots
have
said "don't ignore what the airplane is telling you!" My CFI forwarded my
letter to the owners of the airplane and the airplane was subsequently
grounded
for another week. I received a copy of the response to my CFI from one of
the
owners. He was defensive about the problems with the airplane and about
the
competency of his mechanic.

But the real kicker was that he made me sound like some kind of wacko for
suggesting that I was "connected enough" with the airplane to hear it
"talking"
to me and went on to point out that it is just a machine and that things
go
wrong and need fixing! Well, DUH! It isn't as if I hear voices!! -- I know
full
well that it is a machine and that things need fixing -- that's PRECISELY
the
point. If those little things that are too insignificant to fix in a
3-month
period are not addressed in a 100-hr, how confident is a student pilot
supposed
to feel about the competency of the maintenance or about what priority
maintenance is given by the CFI, owners, or school?

I don't think it's unusual for some new solo pilots to have some
fears--confidence builds the more you fly. While the CFI and the flight
school
have no control over demons at play inside a student's brain, they ARE
capable
and in control of eliminating as many safety concerns as possible by
assuring
that maintenance issues with the airplane are addressed in a reasonable,
timely
way.

Is it reasonable for a student to expect that airplane coming out of a
100-hr
or an annual should have fewer squawks than it did going in? If old
squawks
remain unaddressed after a 100-hr, should a student take a stand? or
should
he/she ignore their own growing concerns and continue to fly the airplane
because the CFI and the school don't seem concerned? While I did
ultimately
take a stand, I feel it should have been up to my CFI to speak up about
the
maintenance on behalf of ALL the students, not up to one of the students.

In response to my letter, my CFI called to say my letter was forwarded to
the
owners of the airplane and that I needed to find someone else to fly with.
I
also received a cc of the letter the owners wrote back to my CFI and a
refund
of the unused portion of $$ I had paid them. They obviously want nothing
further to do with me -- why? for taking a stand about my own safety?

I need more solo, the cross-countries, night and hood time. I have other
options available ... but my point in writing all of this is that things
that
halt a student's progress are not always in the head of the student. CFIs
and
flight schools drop the ball holding up responsibilities on their end too,
even
with the most promising students! It is discouraging, to say the least,
when
you are motivated to push ahead but find yourself having to make the
decision
to leave and go elsewhere or to quit.

Another Frustrated Student Pilot

(Jeb) wrote:

It bad enough learning to night fly without having to decrypt riddles
and cryptic clues. If CFIs need to get off on sarcasm they they should
quit instructing.

Hear hear!

Rob

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

snip
You can't expect the 100 hour to catch a bad vacuum pump - it's not on the
list
of items to inspect, but the ignition system is. My plane came out of
annual with
....."

Checking the vacuum pump actually is on my copy of the Annual/100 hour list
from the Cessna Service Manual for the 152. I don't have a copy of the 172
manual handy, but I suspect it is much the same. I usually do it during the
Annual/100 hour as I do a static RPM check and/or a runup to warm the oil
for an oil/filter change. (oil/filter change is not part of annual/100 hour,
but quite often done at the same time).

Just my $.02

John Severyn
C-152 N24495