Soaring Community Consumer Warning

On Monday, April 1, 2013 7:54:25 AM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Me thinks ;-) someone needs to consider apologize for a very poor policy, very poor treatment of some customers and move past this. Do the right thing rather than have your buddies try to explain your very rude behavior away as "good business."



Before it gets any further out of hand. It's spring, soaring season is amping up and everyone is on RAS, talking via phone, email, in person at glider clubs and (of course) on the social sites...



Just sayin...

Thanks so very much Sean for pointing out to the poor old fogeys in US Soaring that we are hopelessly out of touch with 'social media' and that - gasp - some of us are still talking on the phone to each other! We are surely blessed to have someone of your generation to flog us mercilessly into understanding that.
There's actually a UK TV series that my grandkids love that is dedicated to a person of your smarts (listen to the lyrics, folks, sing along). I'll get into trouble for this, but here it goes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtfb4m6xGCA

If I was younger and less mature I would finish with: just sayin...

Bill Palmer: THANK YOU for Glidersource.com. My Genesis 2 is now online in your classifieds with all the details. Good interface, easy to use, the way it ought to be. Including being use-policy clear and unconditionally "User Friendly" on all fronts. This is how you benefit the soaring community.

Of course, there is this one: http://www.facebook.com/GliderSource
and the twitter feed: http://twitter.com/GliderSource
and an rss feed http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?action=rss
and email subscriptions of new listings
and the SQL/CGI powered web page (not static)

Thanks Bob, my pleasure.
I see you've posted 3 nice photos and linked to your FLICKR.com collection for quite a few more nice ones!
Everybody should go check that out!
http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=332

Bill, I'm sure the Facebook Soaring Want Ads page is high on the Wings and Wheels "black list." But there is probably a fair chance the individual in question is unwilling to use Facebook so maybe we can get away with "cheating on W&W!" Absolutely hilarious.

And to the few frustrated folks who have been reduced to complaining about grammar and spelling errors associated with cell phone typing while in a cab, literally, (wait for it...................), kiss my ass.

If forum posts on topics such as "soaring supply vendors making a conscious, public effort to control the "lucrative" want ads market" was worth the time it takes to correct cell phone typing errors I would probably do so. Unfortunately for you it is not. I could not care less.. Obviously you cannot argue against my points, so you try and point out spelling errors like little school girls.

I suggest staying focused on a the very poor treatment of customers and the lack of any such written conditions on said site regarding said policy.

I suggest that people avoid any vendor with such ridiculous business practices (written or unwritten) unless said apologizes publicly and/or ends said policy via a written statement on said website in a timely manner.

Cheers.

Bill has some good ideas and is well on the way to implementing them. And Sean has raised some valid questions, too (the law of averages at work here)..

Leveraging social media may make sense but as a digital business consultant myself (albeit a hopelessly elderly and senile one), one of my first questions for a client who's dead set on using social media ("We must have social media; the CEO wants it") is: what do you want to accomplish? If the set of potential buyers is very small and they predictably all consult the same few sites to see the same very small number of "for sale" glider ads, how can we add value through social media, value that can't be added in other ways. Otherwise, we risk the old "it's a solution looking for a problem" scenario.

A simple Facebook feed is messy; e.g., GliderSource's Facebook ads are interspersed with news items in chronological (not category) order because they're posted to a timeline. It's easy to find the most recent ads (also on GliderSource.com itself) but not so easy to find a specific type of glider. Plus it appears there's no expire function: 6 of the first 10 ads I clicked displayed "Sorry, The ad you are looking for (item name) is no longer available," forcing me to close the new window in each case and go back to browsing. Not all bad (though nicer than Bill's new competitor Sean's Facebook page) but still probably not going to "destroy" every other soaring want ad site in a year, much less a week.

I'd also venture to say that most pilots looking for a used glider don't even know what an RSS feed is, for example, though I think it's great that Bill (sorry for picking on him--I like most things about his site) offers a lot of choices for communicating information to potential buyers. If I were in the market for a new/used glider--which I have been, on average, every 15-20 years, I'd definitely go to the GliderSource site to look. That's because I suspect there are some gliders there that aren't on the Wings & Wheels site. We know there's one (Bob's Genesis) although, interestingly, it's also on Soaring Cafe's site. So if that's true across the board, why would I need to go to both of those sites? Hmmm.

On the other hand, I'd HAVE to go to Wings & Wheels because that site has ads that don't appear elsewhere. Ironically, Tim has done the rest of his competitors a huge favor: i.e., their sites (or at least some of them) will be visited by interested buyers because there is no single site that holds every listing. Because of this, some of these guys are smart enough to shut up and not try to shame or browbeat Tim into changing his alleged policy.

If I were selling a glider--which I do about as often as I buy one--I would probably just put it up on Tim's site, for the same reason: it's the one site I know people will visit because it has "original content"; i.e., stuff they won't find anywhere else.

Would I regret or resent that Tim might not allow me to post my ad elsewhere? [he has never responded to this thread so we don't really know what his policy is] Maybe. Having more placements out there is better for the seller.. But would I try to harangue him into allowing me to do something he didn't permit on his free site and lecture him about how much better it would be for the soaring community and how it's rude and stupid to do otherwise? I used to try this with my parents. They didn't hang up on me but I suspect they wanted to once or twice.

Sorry guys, but since we weren't on the phone call between Tim and Bob, we don't really know what went down and who, if anyone, was "rude" to whom.

At least Tim doesn't condescend to us, telling us how we're so hopelessly backward that we can't possibly understand the brilliance of his ideas (or refute them). Actually, soaring comprises a great bunch of people. I can't imagine anyone doing that. Certainly I can't imagine anyone on this forum responding to valid criticism with "kiss my ass".

Well, maybe one or two.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Chip, lets wait a year and see what my 6 minutes (and 20 minutes a week) becomes...

Good luck on your business.

I agree, Sean (I feel so WRONG about saying that!). Time will tell.

I suspect none of these sites will look the same way in a year. I do think there's a tendency for some to look at technology for its own sake, especially many in the self-selected group that participates on RAS.

On the other hand, the newer sites do offer more functionality (DIY ad creation/upload, multiple photos, links, buyer search, alerts of various sorts).. Not all sellers may think that's a plus, or even know how to avail themselves of these features. And adding them to Tim's site would require time and investment that he may not want to make. But in the interim, he may not have to. Because of his tenure and rich history and the relationship he has with a lot of us, he probably doesn't get a lot of push back from sellers if, indeed, he truly has an unwritten exclusivity condition.

And as I said, that actually works to the advantage of both his site AND the other sites.

Buyers may not feel the same way. And if and when there are so many gliders for sale that they begin to complain loudly about not having a true multiple listing service, the market may force changes. But buyers have been complaining for years about the lack of an MLS in New York City and real estate brokers/agents are just fine with it.

Technology is not a goal; it's a means to an end. It is useful to solve problems and to create competitive advantage. The used sailplane market is a lot more like selling one-of-a-kind luxury apartments in New York City than searching for discounted airline fares on Kayak, digital DSLRs on eBay, or the latest books on Amazon. So we may be stuck in the Dark Ages for a while longer.

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, BobD wrote:
I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.



Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.



I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.



I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.



Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.



Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.



Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.



Bob DeLeon

Glider pilot and owner since 1997

It is too darn hard to complain about something free; after all the price is right. On the other hand if one pays for it?.........

Sean, this will be my last conversation with you as you seem to be slightly
unstable. In reply to your invitation about kissing, I can only reply, "Go
f**k yourself." You're a miserable ****ant who's so full of himself that
you're worth no more effort.


"Sean F (F2)" wrote in message
...
Bill, I'm sure the Facebook Soaring Want Ads page is high on the Wings and
Wheels "black list." But there is probably a fair chance the individual in
question is unwilling to use Facebook so maybe we can get away with
"cheating on W&W!" Absolutely hilarious.

And to the few frustrated folks who have been reduced to complaining about
grammar and spelling errors associated with cell phone typing while in a
cab, literally, (wait for it...................), kiss my ass.

If forum posts on topics such as "soaring supply vendors making a conscious,
public effort to control the "lucrative" want ads market" was worth the time
it takes to correct cell phone typing errors I would probably do so.
Unfortunately for you it is not. I could not care less.. Obviously you
cannot argue against my points, so you try and point out spelling errors
like little school girls.

I suggest staying focused on a the very poor treatment of customers and the
lack of any such written conditions on said site regarding said policy.

I suggest that people avoid any vendor with such ridiculous business
practices (written or unwritten) unless said apologizes publicly and/or ends
said policy via a written statement on said website in a timely manner.

Cheers.