Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"

But I do and I'm smarter than the FAA. After the revolution I am going
to sit all vfr pilots down and tell them everything they need to know
about instrument flight regarding miing it up with IFR traffic. Ti will
take twenty minutes, incuding commercials.

Bertie-

In my primary training nothing of the sort ever happened. I don't
think anybody else in my flying club got that kind of training for the
private either -- from any of the instructors. Okay, some ILS
approaches were flown, and you have mandatory hood work for
emergencies. But SIDs, STARS, procedure turns, communications, or any
other stuff useful for IFR I'm picking up solely on my own from
Richard Taylor.

And Rod M.'s new book looks like it has a lot of good stuff in it as
well.

I'll be damned if it isn't taking more than 20 minutes though!

wrote in news:819bc4db-2a90-4a40-af2b-
:

But I do and I'm smarter than the FAA. After the revolution I am
going
to sit all vfr pilots down and tell them everything they need to know
about instrument flight regarding miing it up with IFR traffic. Ti
will
take twenty minutes, incuding commercials.

Bertie-

In my primary training nothing of the sort ever happened. I don't
think anybody else in my flying club got that kind of training for the
private either -- from any of the instructors. Okay, some ILS
approaches were flown, and you have mandatory hood work for
emergencies. But SIDs, STARS, procedure turns, communications, or any
other stuff useful for IFR I'm picking up solely on my own from
Richard Taylor.

And Rod M.'s new book looks like it has a lot of good stuff in it as
well.

I'll be damned if it isn't taking more than 20 minutes though!




Heh he. Well, i wasn't going to give them a whole rating! Just tell them
how the other half moves through space, really. SEriously, though, it
oculd be donw in under an hour, easy.
I got some for my Private, but not a lot. Shooting an ILS was out of the
question, though. An airplane with one of hose in it was a rare beast
indeed.
When I taught Private pilots I usually got them to do at least a PAR or
two at the local AFB, bgut I also told them a bit about how the
instrument world worked. That was a while ago. I'd tell them a bit more
now, but not so much as to make a heavy meal out of it.
Thinking about it, I'd explain briefly what an ILS is, it's componenets
and how and where it;s flown. Same for non-precision app. basic minima.
What's going on inside the cockpit of the instrument pilot
Simple stuff, really. just enough so he knows what's going on and it all
doesn't sound like a foreign language to him.


Bertie

Bertie

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
:

On Jan 15, 6:01*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote
innews:1c62ad07-2560-41fc-a01e-d
:





On Jan 15, 5:36*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
news:0b1f9eb2-37b7-4f0c-b4c0-

:

On Jan 15, 12:55*pm, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

There is no requirement for VFR pilots to visit an airport
with an instructor before they first fly to that airport.
Likewise there is n
o
requirement for VFR pilots to purchase approach plates and
enroute charts for cross country airports.

Of course there "is no requirement...". No one said anything
about VFR pilots purchasing approach plates and teaching them
IFR (perish the

mere thought!). Re-read my post. Where I trained (and where I
now teach
)
there are constantly people practicing instrument approaches
and we hear calls like "...N1234a is procedure turn inbound
ILS23.." or "N1234a is YUPPY inbound ILS 32..." Most students
want to know what that means. In any case it behooves an
instructor to explain.. once explained the student will no
longer be ignorant and will ultimately be a safer pilot when
he's out soloing.

So do you disagree that the IFR pilot was wrong to use language
that other pilots may not understand? The IFR pilot would
certainly be foolish if he relied on all VFR pilots knowing the
IFR waypoints and approach fixes at each airport.

NOT WHAT HE SAID!

Sorry for shouting. Seemed appropriate for some reason.

That's why I posted that. I'm trying to clarify what he's saying.
I'm saying IFR pilots should use proper phrasing and he's coming
back with VFR pilots should know IFR waypoints. Its not clear if he
believes his suggestion is a "nice extra" or if he believes it
really soves the problem at hand.

What I understoood him to say was that a vfr pilot should ahve a
broad view of the structure of insturment flight. e.g, where the
outer marker is in relation to the end of the runway. Where the
center fix is. What altitudes the approaching airplane is likely to
be at on an ILS. Waht a SID and STAR is. If they fly out of a busy
airfiled, particulalry if tehy were to do special VFR, it would
behoove them to know roughly what's going on.
Hel, If I were operating IMC in a strange place, I'd have no idea
where the other guy was if he called some strange waypoint, nor would
I look it up. But I'd have a vague idea, at least, what he was up to
wheras a VFR pilot would have next to none.
It's an important part of "keeping the big picture" and expanding
one's comfort zone.
And regular Bunyip readers will know me as a Luddite who never turns
the radio on unless he's forced!

But would you expect a student pilot on a cross country to know what
it means if a IFR pilot calls up with "Cessna 1234 4 files from
FOOBAR"???

Hell, I don't know what that means. You're a Smokey Stover fan?

Bertie

But I would expect that the student would have been taught to look around
him. If he's VFR then he should see and avoid. Just as NORDO traffic may
be in the area, so may traffic giving you references you don't know about.
Not to mention the fact that procedure turns and final approach fixes are
about 5 miles from the touchdown zone so by definition well outside the
pattern.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Jan 15, 6:01 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote
:





On Jan 15, 5:36 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
news:0b1f9eb2-37b7-4f0c-b4c0-

:

On Jan 15, 12:55 pm, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

There is no requirement for VFR pilots to visit an airport with
an instructor before they first fly to that airport. Likewise
there is n
o
requirement for VFR pilots to purchase approach plates and
enroute charts for cross country airports.

Of course there "is no requirement...". No one said anything about
VFR pilots purchasing approach plates and teaching them IFR
(perish the

mere thought!). Re-read my post. Where I trained (and where I now
teach
)
there are constantly people practicing instrument approaches and
we hear calls like "...N1234a is procedure turn inbound ILS23.."
or "N1234a is YUPPY inbound ILS 32..." Most students want to know
what that means. In any case it behooves an instructor to
explain.. once explained the student will no longer be ignorant
and will ultimately be a safer pilot when he's out soloing.

So do you disagree that the IFR pilot was wrong to use language
that other pilots may not understand? The IFR pilot would certainly
be foolish if he relied on all VFR pilots knowing the IFR waypoints
and approach fixes at each airport.

NOT WHAT HE SAID!

Sorry for shouting. Seemed appropriate for some reason.

That's why I posted that. I'm trying to clarify what he's saying. I'm
saying IFR pilots should use proper phrasing and he's coming back with
VFR pilots should know IFR waypoints. Its not clear if he believes his
suggestion is a "nice extra" or if he believes it really soves the
problem at hand.

What I understoood him to say was that a vfr pilot should ahve a broad
view of the structure of insturment flight. e.g, where the outer marker
is in relation to the end of the runway. Where the center fix is. What
altitudes the approaching airplane is likely to be at on an ILS. Waht a
SID and STAR is. If they fly out of a busy airfiled, particulalry if
tehy were to do special VFR, it would behoove them to know roughly
what's going on.
Hel, If I were operating IMC in a strange place, I'd have no idea where
the other guy was if he called some strange waypoint, nor would I look
it up. But I'd have a vague idea, at least, what he was up to wheras a
VFR pilot would have next to none.
It's an important part of "keeping the big picture" and expanding one's
comfort zone.
And regular Bunyip readers will know me as a Luddite who never turns the
radio on unless he's forced!

But would you expect a student pilot on a cross country to know what
it means if a IFR pilot calls up with "Cessna 1234 4 files from
FOOBAR"???

-Robert

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:19:17 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Jan 15, 11:15*am, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

Yea, we teach (or are suppose to teach) IFR pilots not to do that. Its
not very helpful for the intended purpose (to let everyone know where
you are).

-Robert, CFII

Flight instructors should at least tell their students
about what IFR fixes are and where they are (at that airport).
Its not rocket science and it will help the student in the long run.

That would require students to purchase IFR charts for every airport
they visit. They would not only need approach charts but enroutes as

And at that level they's still have no idea where we were. They are
happy to know where they are which is as it should be. There should be
no need to make the primary training more difficult with learning
additional terms and the equivalent of additional patterns. They have
plenty of items to deal with as it is.


well. Its much simplier to just tell the IFR pilots that they need to
use VFR friendly phrasing. Instead of saying "I'm at FOOBAR" they
could just say "I'm 5 miles out on the the ILS straight in runway 12".
Its not very hard.

If the conditions are VFR it's expected that we identify in plain
language. IOW If I'm at HARPY on the VOR-A into 3BS I'd identify as
Barstow traffic, Thirty Three Romeo, 5 West North West at 1100 on the
VOR-A. Even if the VFR pilot has no idea what the VOR-A is, they do
know what 5 WNW at 1100 means. It also tells them I'm coming into the
airport at about half the pattern altitude they are flying.

It doesn't bother me to see a 310 come screaming in at 500 AGL while
I'm flying the pattern at a 1000, but it certainly would unnerve a
student and probably any other pilot who is not used to seeing it as
well.

If the student and VFR pilots had to be familiar with all the
approaches at out little airport it would be a challenge and this is
just a little airport. We have runways 18/36 as well as 06/24. The
VOR approach is on the 317 radial out of MBS meaning the VOR approach
comes in from the WNW, aligns with nothing on the airport, and it
typically ends with a "circle-to-land" at 500 AGL. Then we have the
GPS approaches to both 06 and 24. They are straight in from about 7
miles out. IOW to VFR traffic they are straight in. Mix learning the
straight ins with the VOR and the circle to land and we'd have no low
time pilots in the pattern.

Normally it's not all that busy and you can fly any of the approaches
with the published missed, but on a busy day those on the VOR break
off before tangling with the down wind traffic for 06 even if they are
using 24 if for no other reason than to avoid rattling students.
The straight ins to 06 and 24 have to watch for base traffic and
*normally* announce often enough to know just where they are.
(There are always exceptions)

Me? When VFR knowing where I am, where they are, and what they are
flying lets me know if I can land or need to extend my down wind and
follow the traffic flying the approach. The student and low time
pilot doesn't normally have this capability nor should they be
expected to. So if I were on the GPS 06 I'd identify my position in
reference to the runway and watch for VFR traffic. If I see, or hear
some one on down wind, I'm going to be extra alert for the possibility
of breaking off and joining the pattern

Yes, I could declare being on final as by the time I'm half way to the
airport from the final approach fix I'm within the distance many fly
VFR patterns. Why they insist on using a pattern large enough a 737
could probably fly it I don't know. To me a VFR pattern has base
between a half to three quarters of a mile out and I'm flying high
performance. BTW we have a pilot who flys a 310 and his VFR patterns
are only *slightly* larger than mine. HOWEVER declaiming final does
two things. It is likely to confuse students who are used to, or are
learning to always do things the same and this would interrupt that.
Then there is always the guy who never progressed beyond that point
and is always going to fly the pattern the same no matter what you
say. With that one you see the conflict coming, break off and hope he
never flys into AirVenture.
So, IF I can fit I'll land straight in on the approach, but always
plan it so I can brake off and avoid conflicts.

When it gets exciting is when you discover some one flying those big
patterns just under the ceiling, or you do the step down to find a
windshield full of some one scud running.

BTW we have one pilot who flys such large patterns that on several
occasions pilots in the pattern have mistakenly assumed he was headed
elsewhere. One day he got all bent out of shape because an ultra light
landed ahead of him and he had to go around. I even though he was
headed for MBS.

Roger (K8RI)

-Robert, CFII

In article ,
"Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

It doesn't bother me to see a 310 come screaming in at 500 AGL while
I'm flying the pattern at a 1000, but it certainly would unnerve a
student and probably any other pilot who is not used to seeing it as
well.

I gotta tell you, if I saw an A-310 screaming in at 500 AGL while I was in
the pattern, I'd probably have a laundry problem too. :-)

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:30:32 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

wrote in news:819bc4db-2a90-4a40-af2b-
:

But I do and I'm smarter than the FAA. After the revolution I am
going
to sit all vfr pilots down and tell them everything they need to know
about instrument flight regarding miing it up with IFR traffic. Ti
will
take twenty minutes, incuding commercials.

Bertie-

In my primary training nothing of the sort ever happened. I don't
think anybody else in my flying club got that kind of training for the
private either -- from any of the instructors. Okay, some ILS
approaches were flown, and you have mandatory hood work for
emergencies. But SIDs, STARS, procedure turns, communications, or any
other stuff useful for IFR I'm picking up solely on my own from
Richard Taylor.

And Rod M.'s new book looks like it has a lot of good stuff in it as
well.

I'll be damned if it isn't taking more than 20 minutes though!




Heh he. Well, i wasn't going to give them a whole rating! Just tell them
how the other half moves through space, really. SEriously, though, it
oculd be donw in under an hour, easy.
I got some for my Private, but not a lot. Shooting an ILS was out of the
question, though. An airplane with one of hose in it was a rare beast
indeed.
When I taught Private pilots I usually got them to do at least a PAR or
two at the local AFB, bgut I also told them a bit about how the

There for a while, it seemed like most of the time I went over to MBS
they'd ask me if I'd mind doing a PAR for a trainee. Doing one of
those when it's severe clear is a challenge as I'd want to keep
correcting instead of following directions, but I was able to fight my
instincts and comply with the directions...mistakes and all. :-))
One had me flying a zig-zag path down the ILS which of course I could
see out the windshield and on the localizer. He had me tracking the
GS quite well.

instrument world worked. That was a while ago. I'd tell them a bit more
now, but not so much as to make a heavy meal out of it.
Thinking about it, I'd explain briefly what an ILS is, it's componenets
and how and where it;s flown. Same for non-precision app. basic minima.
What's going on inside the cockpit of the instrument pilot
Simple stuff, really. just enough so he knows what's going on and it all
doesn't sound like a foreign language to him.

Now that I can agree with.

Roger (K8RI)



Bertie

Bertie

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:30:32 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:


There for a while, it seemed like most of the time I went over to MBS
they'd ask me if I'd mind doing a PAR for a trainee. Doing one of
those when it's severe clear is a challenge as I'd want to keep
correcting instead of following directions, but I was able to fight my
instincts and comply with the directions...mistakes and all. :-))
One had me flying a zig-zag path down the ILS which of course I could
see out the windshield and on the localizer. He had me tracking the
GS quite well.

Long time since I've done one of those now.
Bertie

Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Jan 15, 11:41 am, B A R R Y wrote:
I was taught, and it was reinforced by the DE, to use distance and
direction over waypoints.

That's good but just make sure you use waypoints that a VFR pilot
would know (like VORs, etc). Remember the point is for traffic to know
where you are so you don't want to use references that some pilots may
not know. Personally I prefer using relative location to the airport,
since you're only about 10 miles out anyway.

I only use ONE waypoint for airport calls, the airport. G

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Maybe this is different to me because I live in a fog valley. Today I
shoot 6 approaches. Weather was reported as 001OVC and 1/8SM. This is
pretty common weather here. I easily could have landed from any of the
approaches. Flying over the rabbit I clearly could see far enough of
the runway to land.

If you could see that far the Vis was better than 1/8 SM. Maybe
the AWOS visibility sensor needs to be recalibrated.