Libelle Camelbak stowage

jcarlyle wrote:
I put the Camelbak just in back of my head, in front of the spars,
wrapping its harness around the spar safety pins to keep it secure.
Nothing else is there except for the battery, so there's no need to
fret about fouling flight controls.

Nice. The only trouble is that I carefully trimmed the straps off the
Camelbak to stop them tangling round things they shouldn't ought to.
Back then I was flying the club's Pegase and the Camelbak sat nicely
behind the adjustable seat back. I've wondered about doing the same in
the Libelle: its only a 1.5 litre Camelbak so it may be possible to sit
it in behind the top of the seat.

I take the points made about being clouted round the ears by the water
supply: actually, a gallon of water weighs 10 lbs, not 8. My Camelbak is
only 1.5 kg (3.5 lbs but still.... My spar-top bag clips onto the
grunging bar studs so it may restrain a Camelbak that's on the inside.
That certainly needs investigation.

My Camelbak will indeed leak if the tube isn't kept nearly horizontal.

I thought that might be the case. BTW, I've sat on the valve too when it
got down between me and the side of the seat pan.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

jcarlyle wrote:
Were that I were little, Nyal - or at least littler! grin I should
have said before that I'm flying an ASW-19, it's Martin who's
interested in the Libelle libation setup.

Ah Ha. *NOW* I understand how you tied it to the wing pins. I was
wondering! That would also work for a Pegase or ASW-20 but not for a
Libelle with its single wing pin.

However, I could probably use a double keyhole in an alloy plate to tie
it to the grunging pins on top of the spars. Said pins are like the
heads of two rather large nails that project from the tops of the spars
and are used with the grunging bar[1] to pull the wings together during
rigging.

[1] general term in the Cambridge club for this tool. SZD Juniors
and Kestrels also have grunging bars.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin Gregorie wrote:
actually, a gallon of water weighs 10 lbs, not 8.

That depend on which side of the pond you are on. Despite the American
proclivity for having everything oversize, their gallon is a wimp of a
portion as are their pints of beer.


Andy

Andy wrote:
Martin Gregorie wrote:
actually, a gallon of water weighs 10 lbs, not 8.

That depend on which side of the pond you are on. Despite the American
proclivity for having everything oversize, their gallon is a wimp of a
portion as are their pints of beer.


Andy

Roger that. Explains how that Air Canada 767 got into trouble,
doesn't it :-)

Maybe it ought to be Gaylon or Galoun vs. Gallon.

No problem - just measure everything in ounces! The American pint is 16
ounces, the British pint is 20 ounces, etc., etc. Who needs Gaylon,
Galoun, Gallons, Imperial or otherwise? grin OK, OK, for the purists
the Imperial fluid ounce is 1.04 American fluid ounces - close enough
for government work.

On the subject of beer, I'm a Yank but after spending 8 plus years in
Britain I've thoroughly converted to the viewpoint that what we Yanks
call beer should be put back into the horse! Except for Yuengling,
Saranac, or River Horse, of course....YMMV

-John


Papa3 wrote:
Andy wrote:
Martin Gregorie wrote:
actually, a gallon of water weighs 10 lbs, not 8.

That depend on which side of the pond you are on. Despite the American
proclivity for having everything oversize, their gallon is a wimp of a
portion as are their pints of beer.


Andy

Roger that. Explains how that Air Canada 767 got into trouble,
doesn't it :-)

Maybe it ought to be Gaylon or Galoun vs. Gallon.

jcarlyle wrote:
I put the Camelbak just in back of my head, in front of the spars,
wrapping its harness around the spar safety pins to keep it secure.
Nothing else is there except for the battery, so there's no need to
fret about fouling flight controls.

My Camelbak will indeed leak if the tube isn't kept nearly horizontal.
When I put it in the plane I route the tube outside the cockpit, and
after I'm in I route it over my shoulder and then under my shoulder
harness. Once (but only once) I got out and left the tube dangling on
the seat. I discovered after I'd gotten in again that it takes a long
time for your pants and underpants to dry out... grin

-John

Martin Gregorie wrote:

Ouch. But, surely that means putting the Camelbak through the hatch
behind the spars? That makes my teeth itch: there are far too many
control runs back there for it to get tangled up with.

(from another message)

Is there an issue with the Camelbak dribbling down your neck or on your
pants (if you leave the tube dangling) if its behind your head?


Also not applicable to Libelle as I fly a Std. Cirrus.

My solution was to make up a carbon fibre plate that holds my radio speaker, and
keeps stuff on the shelf behind my head. I put my bag behind this but offset so
that in the event of large decelleration forces being applied the CG of the bag
will be on the port side of the plate. Theory is that any liquid filled
projectile will pass a centimetre or so to the left of my ear.

Strangely my cheap Raleigh cycling bag does not leak with the tube significantly
lower than the bag.

jcarlyle wrote:
On the subject of beer, I'm a Yank but after spending 8 plus years in
Britain I've thoroughly converted to the viewpoint that what we Yanks
call beer should be put back into the horse! Except for Yuengling,
Saranac, or River Horse, of course....YMMV

There are honourable exceptions. Sierra Pale Ale is quite drinkable
(though why it should be sold over here is a mystery), and if you're at
Kitty Hawk the theres an E-ball bitter at the "Outer Banks Brewing
Station" that's most acceptable.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Friday, January 12, 2007 at 2:30:48 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
Leaving aside the fire or short issue, you need to consider what it
would feel like to be hit in the back of the head with an 80 lb sack.
Many of the first and second generation gliders have the "storage
shelf" level with the back of the pilot's head and nothing (no bulkhead
or other structure except a flimsy headrest) in between. A gallon of
water weighs about 8 lbs, and it's very possible to induce a rapid 10G
deceleration in an otherwise survivable crash (many texts talk about
survivable 20G pulses). 10Gs operating on 8lbs of water with a
straight shot to the back of your head or neck could put you in a world
of hurt.
At minumum, you need to have a system of tying the bag down to some
solid structure. If using the shelf, you'll probably need to run
anchor bolts down to the bulkhead surrounding the landing gear. LS,
for example, has very detailed instructions on doing this.
I've seen a couple of guys go to the trouble of mounting water supplies
behind the main bulkead (in front of the spars and out of the way of
the mixers/ control rods). They fill the supply through a tube. I
would worry about cleaning the container out periodically lest it get
funky over time, but I'm sure they've thought of this.
Cheers,
Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3
jcarlyle wrote:
I, like probably most glider pilots, put my Camelbak behind my head
next to my battery. But a cautionary tale seems appropriate here.

Last Summer a club member had his glider totaled when his battery set
fire to his empty Camelbak. The probable causes, pinched wires and too
big a battery fuse, were certainly preventable. However, it's clear
that the Camelbak acted as tinder for the overheated battery, and the
fire may not have occurred if the Camelbak hadn't been placed next to
the battery.

-John

Gav Goudie wrote:
Why dont you just put it behind your head like everyone
else?!

The seat pan / control column support wasnt designed
to have a camelbak 'lashed' to it and its easier to
work with gravity than against it!!
AFAIK, being involved in multiple accident investigations, an 11g deceleration will fail your restraints and liquefy your internal organs. So securing your Camel full of ice and using it as a cooling headrest should be well outside risk considerations...the oxygen rack is even scarier, even though my charged steel bottle only weighs 13#. Without getting into why I offer this, I would defer to anyone that can show their work...

On 5/2/21 1:41 PM, Tony wrote:
On Friday, January 12, 2007 at 2:30:48 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
Leaving aside the fire or short issue, you need to consider what
it would feel like to be hit in the back of the head with an 80 lb
sack. Many of the first and second generation gliders have the
"storage shelf" level with the back of the pilot's head and nothing
(no bulkhead or other structure except a flimsy headrest) in
between. A gallon of water weighs about 8 lbs, and it's very
possible to induce a rapid 10G deceleration in an otherwise
survivable crash (many texts talk about survivable 20G pulses).
10Gs operating on 8lbs of water with a straight shot to the back of
your head or neck could put you in a world of hurt. At minumum, you
need to have a system of tying the bag down to some solid
structure. If using the shelf, you'll probably need to run anchor
bolts down to the bulkhead surrounding the landing gear. LS, for
example, has very detailed instructions on doing this. I've seen a
couple of guys go to the trouble of mounting water supplies behind
the main bulkead (in front of the spars and out of the way of the
mixers/ control rods). They fill the supply through a tube. I would
worry about cleaning the container out periodically lest it get
funky over time, but I'm sure they've thought of this. Cheers, Erik
Mann LS8-18 P3 jcarlyle wrote:
I, like probably most glider pilots, put my Camelbak behind my
head next to my battery. But a cautionary tale seems appropriate
here.

Last Summer a club member had his glider totaled when his battery
set fire to his empty Camelbak. The probable causes, pinched
wires and too big a battery fuse, were certainly preventable.
However, it's clear that the Camelbak acted as tinder for the
overheated battery, and the fire may not have occurred if the
Camelbak hadn't been placed next to the battery.

-John

Gav Goudie wrote:
Why dont you just put it behind your head like everyone else?!

The seat pan / control column support wasnt designed to have a
camelbak 'lashed' to it and its easier to work with gravity
than against it!!
AFAIK, being involved in multiple accident investigations, an 11g
deceleration will fail your restraints and liquefy your internal
organs. So securing your Camel full of ice and using it as a cooling
headrest should be well outside risk considerations...the oxygen rack
is even scarier, even though my charged steel bottle only weighs 13#.
Without getting into why I offer this, I would defer to anyone that
can show their work...


Here's my chance to (maybe, har har) set new RAS records for
contributing to an old thread (14 years) while maximizing thread
drift!!! (Will I need a new record category? Who's in charge of RAS,
anyway?) I blame this on the thunderstorm that just drove me indoors...

So, OK, there's always devils in the details, but on the assumption that
the following quoted statement lacks any intentional hyperbole "...an
11g deceleration will...liquefy your internal organs", if he could, Col
Paul Stapp (and many other investigators in years since) and
considerable, multi-field, crash data (e.g. from aviation, auto racing,
etc.) might beg to differ. Many a (sore and bruised) person has survived
up to 20g decelerations, if I'm to believe lots of "technical crash
stuff" I've read over the years. And, no, I'm not volunteering to become
one!

That quibble noted, strapping things firmly (in addition to yourself, of
course, hyuk hyuk), is definitely a good thing, in the event of
crash-induced deceleration...

Bob W.

On Sun, 02 May 2021 12:41:33 -0700, Tony wrote:

AFAIK, being involved in multiple accident investigations, an 11g
deceleration will fail your restraints and liquefy your internal organs.
So securing your Camel full of ice and using it as a cooling headrest
should be well outside risk considerations...the oxygen rack is even
scarier, even though my charged steel bottle only weighs 13#. Without
getting into why I offer this, I would defer to anyone that can show
their work...

I just use the bum bag thingy that Glasfaser sell for fitting in Libelles.
Its well made, pretty strong with a 2mm fibreglass base and clips rather
tenaciously to the rigging spigots on top of the mainspars.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org