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It was 62 years ago today...



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 8th 03, 10:16 PM
Michael 182
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Or you could keep going back to the rise of Nazism, or probably earlier
links.

"James Robinson" wrote in message
...
Rob Perkins wrote:

In short, the chain of events which freed Austria from Naziism
started that day, Martin.


Funny, I'd say the chain of events began two years earlier, when England
and France declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland. The US
participation was simply a later link in that chain.



  #12  
Old December 8th 03, 10:21 PM
Michael 182
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"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:34:55 GMT, Geoffrey Barnes wrote:


*hmmm* still no clue ... well, *googling* ... oh. Pearl Harbor.
Hm, not that important of a date here in Europe and/but well known in the
US, I assume.


Come on Martin - I agree with a lot of your posts that accuse the US of a
provinicial world-view, but to say Pearl Harbor was not a date important in
world history is ludicrous. It was the precipitating event that drew the US
into WWII, which, as I remember, had a pretty large effect on Europe. Saying
Pearl Harbor is an unimportant date in European history is like saying the
rise of Nazism was unimportant in US history.



  #13  
Old December 8th 03, 10:22 PM
Jay Honeck
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In short, the chain of events which freed Austria from Naziism
started that day, Martin.


Funny, I'd say the chain of events began two years earlier, when England
and France declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland. The US
participation was simply a later link in that chain.


Technically true, but it is unlikely that France and England would be
democracies today, had Japan not jolted us into the war.

Thus, some links in the chain are more important than others...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


  #14  
Old December 8th 03, 10:29 PM
Rob Perkins
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:03:41 GMT, Martin Hotze
wrote:

Hm, I don't have the details, but isn't there a stoy about the Japanese
ambassador to the USA being late delivering the declaration of war?


Yeah. He was late. Wouldn't have changed the outcome. That was the day
that brought the U.S. into the war, and the first time in a longlong
time that the U.S. had had its backside handed to it by an aggressive
enemy.

And, yes, I don't think the outcome of WWII would have been a free
Austria without the U.S. in the middle of it. Roosevelt was one of the
principal founders of the United Nations, after all. I don't think
Stalin, Degualle, and Churchill would have been able to pull it off;
Stalin would not have come to the table. And even in '45 Britain could
not have stood alone against the U.S.S.R.'s creation of satellite
states. Had Russia freed Austria it would not have been the neutral
republic it was for the last half of the 20th.

Rob
  #15  
Old December 8th 03, 10:29 PM
Rob Perkins
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On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:18:42 -0800, "David Brooks"
wrote:

*hmmm* still no clue ... well, *googling* ... oh. Pearl Harbor.
Hm, not that important of a date here in Europe and/but well known in the
US, I assume.


Concur. My generation in England knew about Pearl Harbor, but would have to
go to the reference books if someone asked us the date. That would then
provoke the usual "late for that war too" comment.

Now, how many American 20-somethings don't know the date?


Most of them, unfortunately.

Just not *me*.

Rob
  #16  
Old December 8th 03, 10:30 PM
David Brooks
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"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:aX5Bb.473209$Fm2.460844@attbi_s04...

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:34:55 GMT, Geoffrey Barnes wrote:


*hmmm* still no clue ... well, *googling* ... oh. Pearl Harbor.
Hm, not that important of a date here in Europe and/but well known in

the
US, I assume.


Come on Martin - I agree with a lot of your posts that accuse the US of a
provinicial world-view, but to say Pearl Harbor was not a date important

in
world history is ludicrous. It was the precipitating event that drew the

US
into WWII, which, as I remember, had a pretty large effect on Europe.

Saying
Pearl Harbor is an unimportant date in European history is like saying the
rise of Nazism was unimportant in US history.


Agreed, but see my post on distinguishing the date from the event. Following
your analogy, Americans should be able to immediately identify the day/month
a certain person became Reichskanzler. Or, for a closer analogy, the day
Britain declared war.

But I do realize I'm putting (alternative) words into Martin's mouth.

-- David Brooks


  #17  
Old December 8th 03, 10:31 PM
Dan Luke
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"Jay Honeck" wrote:
A few toasts:

To my Father's generation, for saving the world...

To those of my Father's generation who paid the ultimate price
for our freedom...

To all those of my generation, who as a result were never born..


To my hero, my next door neighbor Ken Taylor, who was a back seat gunner
in one of the SBD dive bombers that sank the Jap carriers at the battle
of Midway. Ken was later put ashore with the rest of his air group on
Guadalcanal and got shelled virtually point blank by Jap battleships. He
is one of a quickly-vanishing few WWII vets still with us. If you know
one, don't miss a chance to say "thanks."
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM


  #18  
Old December 8th 03, 10:38 PM
Michael 182
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I hate getting into semantic battles, and if this is one, I quit. Martin
said "Hm, not that important of a date here in Europe but well known in the
US, I assume."

If the meaning was that the event was important but the date was not well
known, I agree with you. If the meaning was "not that important of a date
here in Europe " then, of course, my initial post makes my point.

Michael


"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:aX5Bb.473209$Fm2.460844@attbi_s04...

Agreed, but see my post on distinguishing the date from the event.

Following
your analogy, Americans should be able to immediately identify the

day/month
a certain person became Reichskanzler. Or, for a closer analogy, the day
Britain declared war.

But I do realize I'm putting (alternative) words into Martin's mouth.

-- David Brooks




  #19  
Old December 8th 03, 10:42 PM
Phil McAverty
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"Rob Perkins" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:28:05 GMT, Martin Hotze
wrote:

what happened? (too lazy to put in on google)


!!!!!!

Aside from 11 Sep 2001, 7 Dec 1941 counts as the largest-casualty
surprise attack on United States soil in all its history.

Almost 3000 people died when the Japanese, who (I'm told) thought that
a preemptive attack would cow the U.S., sank a goodly portion of the
fleet based at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, which shook the U.S. out of
protectionism and brought it into the second World War.

(Y'know, that tiny thing Germans don't study anymore?)

In short, the chain of events which freed Austria from Naziism started
that day, Martin.


I don't think so. The single biggest event that really started the chain of
events leading to the end of the war was Hitler's decision to attack the
Soviet Union.
It was Hitler's biggest mistake - made the same mistake as Napoleon. The
mistake ended up destroying their armies. The Germans put their toughest
soldiers on the Eastern Front, leaving "softer" soldiers for the D Day
landing troops to face. Being in France was a holiday compared to the
Eastern Front.

Hollywood does a poor job or portraying history. I gather they a doing a
film , starring Tom Cruise about an American pilot in the Battle of Britain,
10 July - 31 Oct 1940 which will have him winning the battle single handed.
Not bad considering there were only 7 pilots from the US.

It reminds me of another movie U571 which misrepresents historical fact. But
hey, why let truth get in the way of a good story.

Funny, you could say the same about Iraq too.



  #20  
Old December 8th 03, 10:57 PM
Gig Giacona
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"Rob Perkins" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:18:42 -0800, "David Brooks"
wrote:

*hmmm* still no clue ... well, *googling* ... oh. Pearl Harbor.
Hm, not that important of a date here in Europe and/but well known in

the
US, I assume.


Concur. My generation in England knew about Pearl Harbor, but would have

to
go to the reference books if someone asked us the date. That would then
provoke the usual "late for that war too" comment.

Now, how many American 20-somethings don't know the date?


Most of them, unfortunately.

Just not *me*.

Rob


I just asked 3 girls in my office ages and answers below...

21..... "Pearl Harbor, but I only know because it's my anniversary."
30..... "Huh"
35..... "Pearl Harbor" She knew it from the movie.

None of the three could give me a year.


 




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