HELP! To buy or not...rough 63 aztec for $25,000

Buy it for $25K put $100K into it and you will have a $75K airplane.

Wow! Those numbers tell almost the exact story of my 1966 Turbo Aztec.

The subject line of this story caught my eye because that's the amount
of the first check we wrote for our plane (as "salvage - for parts
only"). We've often said it would have still been a bad deal if we'd
gotten it for nothing, but it's a great plane and I have a hard time
imagining anything else working so well for our typical trips.

If I saw a deal like this, I'd be inclined to work something out with
the owner to get the plane through a decent annual inspection and into
airworthiness before writing a check for it. I'd be happy to pay for
the repairs (up to some limit) to be able to purchase a *flying* plane
instead of just one with potential. If you have a mechanic friend and
the plane is already in your backyard, it's a little different, but I
wouldn't want to go through driving two hours each way to work on
restoration again.

Good luck.

--kyler

I never like to rain on someones parade just because they are new to the
game, but this airplane will be trouble...
Your initial engine repair estimates are low by a factor of 3X just to get
em running properly - and then only for a time, maybe a year or so... You
are likely to then find that the engines will both need major overhauls...
One already has the sickness, and as soon as you start using them, so will
the other...
Next, you may find that the props and hubs are out of limits.. Once that
little overhaul is done, you will discover that the rpm wobble also involved
the prop controllers, for a another thousand bucks or so...
You likely will discover that the power pack needs an overhaul, where you
will then discover that most of the hydraulic hoses need replacing... Not
to mention that you need new seals on the gear cylinders, and that the pivot
bushings are shot, causing you to drop the gear - where you will find or
break some limit switches and wiring that needs replacing...
And, while we are on hoses, how about the fuel lines, hmmm? And, you better
get a look at the fuel bladders - probably gonna need some bucks thrown at
them..
Now, lets get into the control surfaces... Most likely the pivot bushings
are worn and the surfaces are sloppy and will need a rebuild... And, how
are the cables and pulleys? And, while we are inside the fuselage how many
AD's have not been done, hmmm? Don't tell me about the log book, have the
mechanic go look.. There's gonna be some surprises on a ship that was not
maintained in the first place

Awww riiight, I'm only getting warmed up (I do speak Aztec) but I'm gonna
stop beating on you here... I hope you get the picture, and that you get
actual, real world, estimates before putting down one penny your paint
estimate is out to lunch... If in the end the math adds up for you, then
go for it... Me, I would look for a plane that was maintained that is in
the $75K - $100K range, that I can fly away - and save myself a lot of grief
and dollars in the end..
Denny

"david" wrote in message
...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane.

(Nathan Young) writes:

Paying $10k/yr insurance plus hangar, plus cost of
capital, plus maintenance bills really sucks when you are not getting
to fly.

Insurance shouldn't be nearly that much for non-moving coverage.
Ours wasn't.

'course it still sucks.

--kyler

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ...

Next, you may find that the props and hubs are out of limits..

Right, I believe this things has the Hartzell X/V hub props on them.
They're probably already unserviceable. Has the first inspection
required by the AD from a few years back been done yet? This
is done every 250 (or 500 hours). A large number of the props
sent to Hartzell for the inspections get defiled by Hartzell as unserviceable.

My initial reaction is first plane? save money? if you have to ask,
don't? Buy it if you WANT a project, otherwise no. It's more difficult
to get work done on a plane than you think. Planes consume money, they
don't save money. What about the down time while it gets repaired?
Usually the running costs of an airplane swamp the purchase costs
anyway, so saving money on purchase becomes a moot point. YOu will
spend the purchase cost in 500 hours of flight running costs. Saving a
little in purchase cost is very minor in the overall long term scheme
of things. Planning on scotching on running maintenance too? If you
have the money, buy a plane in the absolute BEST running condition
with the avionics and options YOU WANT and will be satisfied with. If
you want to save a little money, but a hail damaged plane, they fly
just fine and are 10k less. Also, if you want to save money, ramp it,
not hangar it. Also, if you want to save money, buy liability
insurance only and BE CAREFUL. But don't buy a project to save money.
They don't.

david wrote in message ...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken. It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

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david wrote:

I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?)

$15K times two, as surely the other one is worthless.


Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?)

About $10K to paint an Aztec, although this could wait.


Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?).

That's about right and will get you leather and all new plastic, carpet,
headliner, etc.


Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
$5K-50K here, depending on what you want to do.


Auto pilot broken.

An STEC two axis AP is about $11K installed.


It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal?

An old neglected twin is never a good deal.

Dennis O'Connor wrote:

Next, you may find that the props and hubs are out of limits..

He said it has brand new props.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"Dave Stadt" writes:

Buy it for $25K put $100K into it and you will have a $75K airplane.

Wow! Those numbers tell almost the exact story of my 1966 Turbo Aztec.
Mine was sold as "salvage - parts only" though.

The subject line of this story caught my eye because that's the amount
of the first check we wrote for our plane (as "salvage - for parts
only"). We've often said it would have still been a bad deal if we'd
gotten it for nothing, but it's a great plane and I have a hard time
imagining anything else working so well for our typical trips.

If I went through this again, I'd want to work out something with the
seller so that I could buy an airworthy plane. That might mean making
some agreement on paying up to some maximum amount to have a mechanic
work on the plane before it becomes yours. You'd still pay for the
work but if it turns out that the spar needs to be replaced (about the
only thing mine *didn't* need), you'd be off the hook.

--kyler

As other have posted. Two words of advice: "Run" and "Away". Seriously.
The plane you describe in the condition you describe is likely junk.
Salvage. Please keep looking and find a decent airplane. Spend the $80k
to get one "ready to go". Better yet, spend $100k and get a newer one in
better condition.

Airplane economics are unlike anything else on the planet (except maybe
US government defense spending). You can easily spend way more to get
this plane operational than it is worth. 1200 SMOH on the engines?
Figure replacing both of them immediately. Why? A plane that has been
deteriorated as you describe is not going to miraculously have decent
engines. They are no doubt in the same shape as the rest of the plane.
Beat up, cheaped out, worn out. If they were recent factory overhauls
with warranties, MAYBE. One cracked cylinder... so far.

Good airplanes are not sold with this kind of laundry list. The
seller(s) KNOWS it will cost more to bring the thing up to snuff than
they could possibly fetch. Otherwise, why would they not get the work
done and MAKE MORE MONEY?????

My rule of thumb is: consider a plane with no more than ONE weak area
(engine(s)/prop(s), airframe paint, interior, avionics). This plane
needs all 4. Game over.

Your avionics guy is an excellent choice to check out the plane...
AVIONICS. Nothing more. You need a type-familiar IA to do a $500-$1000
pre-buy inspection on this beast. Others will scream at that price
(remember gang, 2 engines, 2 props, landing gear, 30+ year old plane),
but pre-buys are just like insurance - pay a little, get a lot.. of
risk! Don't worry, you will most likely never finish the pre-buy
inspection. I would put money on the inspection stopping very early on
when several other major problems are "discovered".

The market is depressed and planes are moving slowly. You should be able
to leverage a pretty good deal on a decent plane if you keep looking.

Good Luck,
Mike

david wrote:
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken. It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

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Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?)

Since it cost me $12,000 to paint my Skyhawk, this seems a little low for
an
Aztec.

Ouch, it's only costing me about 6K to have the Navion painted. Of course,
I'm doing it in a rather low cost area of the country.

I actually flew mine from New York to Florida to have the paint job done there
(Hoover Aircraft Refinishing-Tampa Bay Exec). The job included new glass all
around, and was done in Jan 2000. Here I am 4 years later and she still looks
brand new--tied down outside in the brutal heat of August and the freezing snow
and ice of New York winter. When I was asking for quotes up here in the NY
area, I was getting $12-14K prices and 6 month waiting lists.


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