USS Liberty. MTB crewman has credibility.

Here is a link to a document on the ussliberty.org site.

http://ussliberty.org/limor.txt

It is an article that was published in the NY Times a month after the
attack. It recounts what Micha Limor, who is said to be a crewman on
the attacking MTBs, says he saw and did. Much of what Limor has to say
does not square with the testimony from the US Naval inquiry, so he is
obviously lying in those accounts.

But Micha Limor also has knowledge of events that has been confirmed
after the fact by physical evidence and testimony produced by the USN
and NSA.

-Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: THE NEW YORK TIMES, July 7, 1967.

ISRAELI NAVY MAN DESCRIBES THE ATTACK ON THE LIBERTY

The following article was written for The
Associated Press by Micha Limor, described as an
Israeli naval reservist who was serving on one of
the torpedo boats that attacked the United States
communications ship Liberty off the Sinai coast on
June 8. Other accounts describe Limor as an
Israeli journalist. Whatever Limor is, he does
not appear to have been a witness to the attack as
he claims. Not only does he describe things that
did not happen, such as circling the ship several
times before firing torpedoes, he claims to have
hit the "left" (port) side with his torpedo. The
torpedo struck the "right" (starboard) side of the
ship, instantly killing 25 men.

Limor tells us that the ship flew no flag. Not
so. An oversize American flag flew throughout the
attack. The torpedomen examined that flag from
less than 50 feet away, then continued firing from
close range on anything that moved.

Limor tell us that the boatmen offered help. He
does not mention that the offer came more than two
hours after after the torpedo explosion.


--------------------------------------------------

TEL AVIV, July 6--The torpedos were ready
for firing when our three Israeli torpedo boats
zeroed in on the gray ship moving slowly on a
south-easterly course off El Arish.

At that tense moment, not one of us on
those torpedo boats could have suspected that this
was the beginning of an incident that was to cause
a long international wrangle.

On June 8, the sun was already high in the
sky when we received notification of an
unidentified vessel some 12 miles off El Arish
susoected of being an enemy craft.

Formations Taken Up

Within moments, the face of our torpedo
boat changed. Sailors took their positions,
engines were revved up, and in five minutes we
were moving out in formation, torpedo boat, after
torpedo boat, toward th deep sea..

We spooted the objective once on the radar
screen. She was moving on a steady course,
southeast at about 10 knots. We sailed toward the
objective at an increased speed, looking at her
through binoculars in an effort to identify the
vessel. Two of our planes flew over our heads a
few minutes afterward. We saw them circle the ship
several times, and then dive into the attack.

They spat two rockets into the gray ship,
and plumes of smoke rose from her. Then the two
jets headed away toward the coast.

About 2,000 yards from the ship, a strange
soectacle met our eyes. The high masts and the
many weird antenna showed that this was a warship.
The side of the vessel was blotted out by smoke.,
and aprt from three numbers along her side, which
meant nothing to us, we could not discern a thing.

`We could see no flag on the mast, nor was
anyone to be seen on the decks and bridge.

[The United States Navy, investigating the
incident, reported the Liberty was flying the
American flag when the planes attacked. It
conceded, however, that the resulting smoke might
have obscured the view of the attacking torpedo
boats. NYT]

No Answer Received

We spent several minutes trying to contact
the ship and demanding identification. We tried by
radio and by heliograph, in accordance with
internationally accepted means. But she gave no
answer. It also seemed that she had managed to
control the fires and continued on a stable
course.

It was decided to pass by her in battle
formation and demand identification by firing
across her bow. So we moved past at a tremendous
speed, firing across the empty bridge and the bow.

Suddenly, a sailor appeared in view and
started firing at us with a heavy nachine gun from
the bridge. We took the challenge and directed
cannon fire against him. A moment later he fell
together with the machine gun.

Thus there was no doubt that we were faced
by the enemy. The prolonged refusal to identify
herself, the absence of any flag, the shooting at
usm and above all, the weird contraptions on the
ship left us without doubt.

We wanted to make the ship surrender
without sinking her. Once again we circled the
vessel in battle formation, firing again and
again. This had no effect. No one appeared. No one
reacted. The shells caused little damage to the
hull and the ship proceeded on her way.

You could almost hear the men's teeth
grinding aboard our boat. Nothing can annoy a
torpedo boat crew more than being completely
ignored, The order was given to prepare for a
torpedo attack.

We drew up along the left side of the ship
and advanced at full battle speed. Just as in
dozens of training exercises we reached the right
angle and range--and let go.

We thought only a mirace would save the
ship. One of the torpedos hit amidships. There
followed an enormous explosion and a huge water
spout.

And then fires broke out and the ship
leaned sideways as if about to sink. We watched
for survivors, as is customary, whether friend or
enemy. But no one appeared on deck.

First Identification

Suddenly, something fell into the sea. One
of our boats approached and picking it up from the
waters, found it to be a rubber lifeboat with the
lettering "U.S. Navy."

That was the very first sign of
identification.

A moment later there arrived on the scene
the helicopter that was to have picked up
prisoners. He hovered over the ship and then
signaled us:

"They are raising the American flag."

It was crystal clear we had hit friends.

Dozens of shells, rockets and torpedoes
were needed to drag a sign of identity from them,
said one of my seamen who, like the rest of his
mates, was bitterly upset at this turn of events.

He was right. The showing of the Stars and
Stripes at the first stage would have prevented
all that happened subsequently.

Help Offered

We received orders directly from the
officer commanding the navy to give all necessary
help. So we approached the Liberty and offered
help through a loudspeaker,

Then an officer appeared for the first
time on the bridge and screamed, "Go to hell!"

Learning they did not need aid, we left.
And the Liberty returned to her regular
operations. It seemed any other ship would have
sunk.

It was only later that we learned how many
casualties had been caused by our torpedoes.

END












collected by the USA. o ieing m eis

Hey Stevie-baby, you haven't been keeping up with the latest facts:
__________________________________________________ _______________
Middle East - AP
July 9, 2003
Recordings Back Israel Claim on Spy Ship
By PETER ENAV, Associated Press Writer
Filed at 6:36 p.m. ET

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Newly declassified transcripts back up Israel's
claim that its attack on a U.S. spy ship during the 1967 Middle East
war was an accident, a Florida judge who has been investigating the
case for 16 years said Wednesday.

Israel has always maintained it thought the USS Liberty was an
Egyptian military supply ship when it ordered its forces to attack on
June 8, 1967, killing 34 American sailors and wounding 171. But
critics charge Israel knew the ship was American. Questions about the
case have long dogged U.S.-Israel relations.

Miami Judge A. Jay Cristol received transcripts of transmissions from
two Israeli helicopter pilots, sent to check for survivors after the
attack. The pilots referred to the ship as Egyptian and were
surprised to discover it was flying an American flag.

The recordings, in Hebrew, were made by a U.S. spy plane hovering over
the site.

The transcript of the transmissions records the air controller telling
one of the pilots, ``The ship is now identified as Egyptian, you can
return home now.''

Cristol told The Associated Press he received the transcripts after
submitting a Freedom of Information request to the U.S. National
Security Agency, which had kept the recordings secret for 37
years. After his request was denied, Cristol filed suit in federal
court and forced their release.

Agency spokesman Patrick Weadon confirmed Cristol had been sent the
transcripts.

``We provided the tapes as part of the historical record,'' Weadon
said. ``The agency takes no official position on what happened to the
Liberty.''

Cristol, who has written a book about the case, said, the tapes ``show
both the helicopter pilots and their controller ... believed the
Israeli air force had targeted an Egyptian ship.''

A National Security Agency summary of the incident says the Israelis
were confused over the stricken ship's identity more than an hour
after the attack.

Cristol provided the summary and full transcripts of the pilot and
tower recordings to The Associated Press.

Israel has long maintained the attack was the result of a tragic
mistake during the heat of battle. Israel was at war with Egypt, Syria
and Jordan at the time.

An Israeli commission of inquiry concluded the Israeli air force
believed the targeted ship was an Egyptian cargo vessel ferrying
supplies to Egyptian troops fighting Israeli forces.

However, some of the Liberty's survivors and some officials in the
U.S. defense establishment have rejected this view, contending Israel
deliberately targeted the ship to keep the United States from learning
that Israel was planning to attack Syria as part of its strategy
during the war.

The Israeli daily Haaretz, which first reported the disclosures in its
Wednesday edition, quoted Cristol as saying the tape transcripts were
the last classified intelligence about the Liberty.
__________________________________________________ _______________

--
SAUDIA OMNIS IN PARTES TRES DIVIDENDA EST! Free Arabia by
splitting the Saudi tyranny into its three natural parts:
Hejaz-alHarameyn, Nejd-Wahhabistan, and Gulf-Petrolia.
Murderers are not Martyrs! http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/

(Steve Richter) wrote in message . com...
Here is a link to a document on the ussliberty.org site.

http://ussliberty.org/limor.txt

It is an article that was published in the NY Times a month after the
attack. It recounts what Micha Limor, who is said to be a crewman on
the attacking MTBs, says he saw and did. Much of what Limor has to say
does not square with the testimony from the US Naval inquiry, so he is
obviously lying in those accounts.

But Micha Limor also has knowledge of events that has been confirmed
after the fact by physical evidence and testimony produced by the USN
and NSA.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: THE NEW YORK TIMES, July 7, 1967.

ISRAELI NAVY MAN DESCRIBES THE ATTACK ON THE LIBERTY

The following article was written for The
Associated Press by Micha Limor, described as an
Israeli naval reservist who was serving on one of
the torpedo boats that attacked the United States
communications ship Liberty off the Sinai coast on
June 8.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TEL AVIV, July 6--The torpedos were ready
for firing when our three Israeli torpedo boats
zeroed in on the gray ship moving slowly on a
south-easterly course off El Arish.

The Liberty is moving slowly. Limor is correct.

On June 8, the sun was already high in the
sky when we received notification of an
unidentified vessel some 12 miles off El Arish
susoected of being an enemy craft.

ok.

We spooted the objective once on the radar
screen. She was moving on a steady course,
southeast at about 10 knots.

Note that Limor, who I think is an officer on the MTB, says the radar
reading showed the Liberty is moving at 10 knots. Cristol and the
Israeli Navy say the radar indicated a much greater speed, hence it
was a warship. Why should Limor be doubted and the Israeli Navy
believed?

We sailed toward the
objective at an increased speed, looking at her
through binoculars in an effort to identify the
vessel. Two of our planes flew over our heads a
few minutes afterward.

this is absolutely correct. In the USN court of inquiry testimony was
introduced that the radar on the Liberty first picked up the IAF
attack planes as they passed over the approaching MTB squadron.

We saw them circle the ship
several times, and then dive into the attack.

Well there is no evidence from the US Navy side that the planes
circled the Liberty even once. So lets just say Limor is incorrect on
this account.

They spat two rockets into the gray ship,
and plumes of smoke rose from her. Then the two
jets headed away toward the coast.

They attacked repeatedly in a criss crossing manner. And there was
also a 2nd set of planes involved. But the planes did leave once the
MTBs arrived on the scene. There is no reason for Limor to lie about
this, so lets just assume he is very excited and leave it at that.

About 2,000 yards from the ship, a strange
soectacle met our eyes. The high masts and the
many weird antenna showed that this was a warship.

Fascinating, aye? Limor says "we" saw high masts and weird antenna (
the Liberty has a 10' wide parabolic satelite dish used to bounce
messages off of the moon. ) Cristol tells his reader that the MTB
CDRs were in agreement that the ship they saw closely resembled an
Egyptian freighter. The NSA 1981 report says Oren and all are full of
crap.

Limor flatly states what it was obvious the MTB crew would have seen.

The side of the vessel was blotted out by smoke.,
and aprt from three numbers along her side, which
meant nothing to us, we could not discern a thing.

Now read this last Limor sentence again. Focus on the phrase "which
meant nothing to us". Now read the following exchange that the NSA
recorded between Pagoda ( MTB ) and the IAF helicopter as the
helicopter hovers over the Liberty 30+ minutes after the torpedo
attack:

---pilot: I understand that the ship is not dangerous.
---Pagoda: Not sure it is not dangerous, do you identify its
nationality?
---pilot: Negative, it is written "GTR5".
---Pagoda: Roger.
---pilot: Does it mean something?
---Pagoda: Negative, it means nothing.

Limor, in this report written days to a month after the attack, in a
report which presumably Cristol does not give any credence because he
leaves it completely out of his "final word" book, uses the SAME WORDS
to describe the SAME CIRCUMSTANCE that pagoda ( MTB CDR Oren ) uses.

You cant get more accurate than this. Limor sees the "high masts and
weird antenna" ( and 10' satelite dish ). By the 3 numbers along the
side, presumably he means the "GTR-5" hull marking on the bow of the
Liberty. He sees all this from a mile distance from the ship. Why
would CDR Oren not see the same thing?

No Answer Received

We spent several minutes trying to contact
the ship and demanding identification. We tried by
radio and by heliograph, in accordance with
internationally accepted means. But she gave no
answer. It also seemed that she had managed to
control the fires and continued on a stable
course.

Limor now describes the attack on the Liberty. Up to this point he
has been accurate. His description of the attack seems to be way off
base, so for the purpose of showing where he is uncanningly, eye
witness , accurate, lets just skip it.

First Identification

Suddenly, something fell into the sea. One
of our boats approached and picking it up from the
waters, found it to be a rubber lifeboat with the
lettering "U.S. Navy."

Now Limor the eyewitness is at odds with Cristol the whitewash author
again. At least Cristol the author of the timeline that says the MTB
crew did not pick up the liferaft until 30 minutes later at 1540,
after the IAF helicopters had identifed the Liberty and left the
scene. In TLI, Cristol does report the time of the liferaft pickup as
Limor reports. The reason this has some importance is that MTB CDR
Oren and the Israeli Navy and the GOI say they do not know the
attacked ship was American until the IAF helicopters see the american
flag.

And in the recently released NSA tapes of the conv between
MTB/Pagoda/Oren and the IAF Helicopters, Oren tells the helos that the
ship may still be dangerous and that the GTR-5 hull markings "mean
nothing".

But Limor and maybe Cristol say that Oren does know the ship is
American and as such it will not be dangerous and the lettering on the
side is what the IAF attack planes knew it was as soon as they saw it.
The identifying hull markings of the ship.


A moment later there arrived on the scene
the helicopter that was to have picked up
prisoners. He hovered over the ship and then
signaled us:

"They are raising the American flag."

Limor is correct about the helos arriving on the scene. He is probably
correct about them signaling, because the NSA intercepts dont record
the helicopter crew verbally telling the MTBs that they see the
american flag.

As far as "they are raising the American flag", this is Limor moving
back to incorrect/lying territory again. No where in the NSA
intercepts and the IAF transcripts do we hear the helicopter pilot say
the flag is being raised. Only that they see the flag.

Help Offered

We received orders directly from the
officer commanding the navy to give all necessary
help. So we approached the Liberty and offered
help through a loudspeaker,

Then an officer appeared for the first
time on the bridge and screamed, "Go to hell!"

Learning they did not need aid, we left.
And the Liberty returned to her regular
operations. It seemed any other ship would have
sunk.

Again Limor is accurate and he shows that he knows things that only an
eyewitness would know. Why does Cristol ignore this person??

This Limor account provides us with a lot of good, accurate, important
information. It blows the the entire Israeli Navy account out of the
water, dont mind the pun. Limor says the MTB radar measures the
Liberty speed as 10 knots. He says the ship is bristling with odd
antenna and tall masts. ( which the IAF controller on the NSA
intercepts warns the helicopter pilot about ).

And the fact that Limor is only inaccurate when recounting actual
attack on the ship, is more proof in a negative sort of a way. Why
would someone who demonstrates repeatedly that they can accurately
report what they see, suddenly start to be inaccurate unless they are
trying to hide the truth?

-Steve