Life is horribly, horribly unfair

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:ySDZa.117114$Ho3.15619@sccrnsc03...

We're living in the only society in history that has FAT poor people, for
God's sake. Imagine THAT, just 100 years ago?


IMHO, it's just a new twist on the same old problem of poverty.

Poor people aren't fat because they get enough to eat. They are fat because
food technology has developed to a point where caloric substance is
available dirt cheap, but not in anything of high quality. Poor people eat
what they can afford, which turns out to mostly be junk food.

The fresher the food, the less processed the food, and the fewer additives,
the more it costs. A completely organic diet, arguably the healthiest
approach, is significantly more expensive than spending a few bucks at
McDonald's every meal.

This is an oversimplification, of course. There are other factors in why
poor people tend to be fat, and of course, there are still plenty of wealthy
people who are overweight too. These are all generalizations. But I don't
think the large number of overweight poor people is in any way indicative of
a particular standard of living. If anything, poor people today have worse
nutrition that they did 100 years ago.

That's all interesting but the fact is what we call poor really isn't
poor. Imagine some guy sitting in the dirt of his hut in some African
backwater laughing becaue the Americans declare somebody that makes $20K
per year "poor." We have the richest poor people in the world.

"Robert Perkins" wrote in message
...
It is, since a diet of conventionally farmed fresh foods (potatoes,
in-season fruits and veggies, inexpensive meats) is significantly
cheaper than McDonald's at every meal, and also cheaper than buying
"organic" foods.

Not a debate worth having here. However, it is my opinion that a large host
of maladies appearing today are a result of mass produced food. Further,
there are huge hidden costs with mass produced food, very similar to those
associated with energy (including government subsidy). Just because the
beef is between $2-10/pound in the grocery, that doesn't mean that's all it
costs.

If you wish to disagree, fine. There is little documented evidence one way
or the other regarding the hazards of mass-produced food. Just a lot of
circumstantial evidence. The data on the hidden costs is easier to find,
however.

Oh, I disagree entirely with that. Unbalanced nutrition is a problem
among all Americans

And is worse among the poor, just as obesity is.

Pete

But the African has a sense of humor. Something we are very short on.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

That's all interesting but the fact is what we call poor really isn't
poor. Imagine some guy sitting in the dirt of his hut in some African
backwater laughing becaue the Americans declare somebody that makes $20K
per year "poor." We have the richest poor people in the world.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
Poor people aren't fat because they get enough to eat. They are fat because
food technology has developed to a point where caloric substance is
available dirt cheap, but not in anything of high quality. Poor people eat
what they can afford, which turns out to mostly be junk food.

The fresher the food, the less processed the food, and the fewer additives,
the more it costs. A completely organic diet, arguably the healthiest
approach, is significantly more expensive than spending a few bucks at
McDonald's every meal.

Actually, Pete, as someone who lived on a food budget of $20/month
for prolonged times, it's not true that healthy fresh food costs more
than "a few bucks at McDonalds". I'll leave the debate about whether
"organic" has real meaning and what it means for another newsgroup,
let's just talk about fresh or unprocessed foods like carrots
potatoes, beans, and rice vs. pre-packaged food from boxes.

But I'll put it up front that it will sum to, you're right in principle
but mistaken in the details and reasons.

As someone who has "BTDT" I can tell you the cheapest way to eat is
to go to the farmer's market and come home with 20 lbs of potatoes,
10 lbs of onions, 3 lbs of carrots, celery, couple heads of cabbage,
and some in-season fruit. You stick all that in a backpack or canvas
bags or what-have-you and lug it home on public transit. Then you go
to the local ethnic market and buy a big sack of dried beans and another
of rice, not the best quality. At the supermarket you buy veg. oil,
generic flour, and cheap pasta. Maybe powdered milk. Maybe canned
tuna. Cheese is a special treat, so is fresh milk or butter. Bottle
of generic vitamins pref. catch Puritan's 3-for-1 semi-yearly sale
and keep the spares in the fridge.

What do you eat? Various veg. and bean soups and stews. Chili
and rice. Dahl and rice. Potato pancakes. Baked potatoes stuffed
with veggies. Pasta w/ veggie sauce, maybe veggie and bean sauce.
It's very healthy and very cheap.

What's the catch? Well, first, it takes stable storage space. You
have to buy in bulk and have a place to keep the stuff where it won't
spoil or be infested by rodents or bugs. You need a 'fridge and
electricity which will stay on to keep the veggies through the summer,
and also to be able to freeze grains and beans to kill insect larvae
before storing them at room temp.

Second, you need some knowledge. I can cook beans and rice every
day for a month and have them taste and appear different each day,
because I can cook in the style of 4 major cuisines. But, that
takes a lot more know-how than fixing box mac-n-cheese. Then you
get into issues of culture and palatability to self and family. My
in-laws won't eat a lot of what I cook, for example, while friends
gobble it down and say it's delicious. It's too far from their
experience. Psychologically it wouldn't work for them.

Third, you need planning, both to have the money to buy cheaply
in bulk, and to do the advance prep so dinner will be ready before
10 pm. To buy different beans and spices every week so that after
a couple months you have some variety.

Fourth, you need some time. You have to be able to take a Saturday
morning once a month and go to the markets. You have to have time
to chop veggies and wash beans and get it going in a crockpot or
something while you work, or else have a couple hours to cook dinner.
For people who have many kids and are working 2 shifts already, that's
non-trivial.

Transportation is also an issue in a lot of places. It might take
3 bus changes and 2 hrs, not so simple while you're lugging around
40 lbs of veggies and herding a gaggle of kids. Or it might just
take a car, which means gas and maybe parking issues. So you go to
the local market, and in the poor areas of most cities that means
cheap box and canned food and expensive, poor quality fruits and
veggies.

Lastly, while it's much much cheaper than "a few bucks at McDonalds
every meal" especially when you're feeding several mouths, it DOES
turn out that prepared, boxed foods from places like Aldi's are
even cheaper. Stuff like scalloped potatoes, mac-n-cheese, Ramen
noodles. AND, it needs less planning, less preparation, and less
care in storage. It also satisfies cultural issues for a lot of
people. But, you're right, it's crap -- high in calories and low
in nutrition.

It is true that there are issues involved w/ poverty and nutrition,
but they aren't that simple as "fresh food is more expensive than
McDonalds". Anyone who thinks that hasn't had much experience feeding
5 mouths on a tight budget.

Cheers,
Sydney

(Gene Seibel) wrote in message om...
But the African has a sense of humor. Something we are very short on.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

That's all interesting but the fact is what we call poor really isn't
poor. Imagine some guy sitting in the dirt of his hut in some African
backwater laughing becaue the Americans declare somebody that makes $20K
per year "poor." We have the richest poor people in the world.

These rec.aviation forums really **** me off sometimes. All some of
you seem to do is high-jack threads and have ****ing matches. You few
jack-asses that high-jacked this thread go IM each other somewhere and
leave this thread to the topic, which in case you have forgotten is
tragic and very troubling.

Donovan

"Donovan" wrote in message
om...
[...] You few
jack-asses that high-jacked this thread go IM each other somewhere and
leave this thread to the topic

Are you serious? This thread was off-topic from the get-go.

Get a grip.

"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
It is true that there are issues involved w/ poverty and nutrition,
but they aren't that simple as "fresh food is more expensive than
McDonalds".

IMHO, you just proved my point. All five components of your low-cost meal
plan are in short supply for most poor people in this country. Education
being one of the most significant.

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:

However, that's not my point. You have the same tunnel vision Jay has. All
I'm saying is that it's fallacious to think that the obesity of poor people
in any way indicates an improvement in their nutrition. I would bet that
more people die of obesity-related illness today than died of starvation in
1903 (per capita, of course).

And I wouldn't bet that, so now we're even, since neither of us has
data.

Our fundamental disagreement seems to be that I believe things have
gotten significantly better for pretty much everyone (though not by
the same amounts, but still better for all), and you seem to believe
that things haven't. Your privilege, of course.

And now that the thread has completely departed from the realms of
aviation...

....Peter
--
Peter H. Schmidt Lifting Mind Inc.
_/ Speaking \_ 2 Ewell Avenue
www.liftingmind.com \ for myself / Lexington, MA 02421
fax: 781 863-8858 tel: 781 863-5200