Instrument rating??

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message

Thoughts on this??

Definitely get the rating.

On the one hand, the added skills accompanying the Instrument Rating can
only enhance your judgment and abilities.

On the other hand, (at the risk of sounding elitist), he was right -- once
you've flown every day in the IFR system, earning your living on a schedule,
good weather and bad, you realize just what the difference between adequacy
and proficiency means. That doesn't mean that a 200 hr instrument pilot is
dangerous, simply that he operates in a world with a higher degree of
vulnerability than the daily professional. I'm speaking here of the
vulnerability of the skills to degradation through intermittent use.

One very important distinction to keep in mind is this -- the Instrument
Rating does not equip you to fly in bad weather; it equips you to fly when
you can't see. That's all.

Regards,

John Gaquin
B727, B747

IMHO, and, granted, spoken from the standpoint of a non-instrument rated
pilot, I think your friend of a friend is making some pretty gross
generalizations Paul. If he could back it up with real data, ok, *maybe*
I'd consider his point...depends on the data though.

without it. (Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)

I'd have to agree that if someone was so confident that they could handle
hard IMC just because they were instrument rated, that's the first link in
the accident chain. And, sure, if they're not current enough to handle
*any* IMC, that's link number two in the chain. I disagree, however, that
just because someone has an instrument rating, they'll automatically have
such a sense of confidence with IMC that they'll make a bad go/no go
decision and end up flying when they shouldn't. Sure, some people are going
to do so but not everyone.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Personally, I'd ignore the friend of a friend,
even if he has a zillion hours. Thanks for posting this though as I've
found this an interesting thread. I'm planning on starting my instrument
rating this year.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:53:29 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

So, this is what he told me: unless I'm going to be flying 3 times/week
at least, getting my instrument ticket is a waste and possibly dangerous
as well. He thinks I'll be more likely to end up dead with it than
without it. (Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)

In other words, the less you know, the safer a pilot you will be.

It seems his comments imply that you have/will have poor judgement, in
order to be true. That is probably more a commentary on him than on you.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I've got to agree with the friend of a friend of a friend of a
friend, etc.

Listen to what he says and understand what he means.

In another thread on this News Group there was a discussion about
single pilot IFR and I'll paraphrase some comments 'You can get like a
one arm paper hanger'. The only way a one arm paper hanger can do his
job is to be proficient (or to say it another way, "Practice makes
perfect").

If you are going to fly hard IFR to minimums then you need to
practice all aspects of IFR flight often enough to stay proficient in
the manner you are using your license.

Remember you can only die once so plan your flying activities to delay
that occurrence as far in the future as possible.

The way to die, is in bed with your boots on (paraphrase) G

Big John



On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:53:29 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

I had always planned on getting my instrument rating- within the next
year, probably. But last weekend I had a chat with someone who really
got me thinking about it.

This guy is a friend of a friend and is a retired 20,000 hour ATP.
Retired in the 80s flying 707s and I forget what else. Instructed in
Cubs for years. (Guy has nine count 'em nine engine failures in Cubs!
Two inside 20 minutes once!)

So, this is what he told me: unless I'm going to be flying 3 times/week
at least, getting my instrument ticket is a waste and possibly dangerous
as well. He thinks I'll be more likely to end up dead with it than
without it. (Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)

Thoughts on this??

The way to die, is in bed with your boots on (paraphrase) G

Naw . . . the way to die is in bed at the age of 80, shot to death by a jealous
husband. G


www.Rosspilot.com

The way to die, is in bed with your boots on (paraphrase) G

Naw . . . the way to die is in bed at the age of 80, shot to death
by a jealous husband. G

Nah... The way to die is in bed, at the age of 105, on the upstroke,
shot by a jealous spouse, hers! That way you get one more stroke
on the way out! :-)


Jer/



Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 197 Young Eagles!

Paul Folbrecht wrote in message link.net...
I had always planned on getting my instrument rating- within the next
year, probably. But last weekend I had a chat with someone who really
got me thinking about it.

This guy is a friend of a friend and is a retired 20,000 hour ATP.
Retired in the 80s flying 707s and I forget what else. Instructed in
Cubs for years. (Guy has nine count 'em nine engine failures in Cubs!
Two inside 20 minutes once!)

So, this is what he told me: unless I'm going to be flying 3 times/week
at least, getting my instrument ticket is a waste and possibly dangerous
as well. He thinks I'll be more likely to end up dead with it than
without it. (Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)

Thoughts on this??

To get instrument rated is one of the smartest things you can do.
Aside from keeping you upside right as opposed to upside wrong?---- it
will enhance all your flying and more aware of what you are doing.
I recall a pilot many years ago who told me I should stay away from
helicopters if I didn't fly them everyday. Well, he is dead in a
mid-air with some other pilots who flew everyday (Los Angeles 1966,
air watch pilot and LA Sheriffs over Chavez Ravine). These many years
later I am still flying helicopters and not on a weekly basis. I am
instrumented rated in both fixed wing and helicopter and still don't
fly that often in IMC. Would I go and challenge it right now? NOT ON
YOUR LIFE.(NOR MINE) But, am I confident that I can stay right side up
in IMC? Yes....and more importantly, I have learned how to stay out of
those situations that require my superior skills! It prevented me from
a potential crash while doing night frost control when fog suddenly
developed and we had to land. I found it during a turn, got vertigo
while in a pull up/turn-around and when I got ground contact again
discovered I was in a 20 degree bank going backwards. PLEASE...FOR
THOSE WHO ARE NOT PROFESSIONALS WITH AT LEAST 10,000 HOURS DON'T TELL
ME HOW STUPID THAT WAS? Simply something that the pro runs into from
time to time and deals with.
There is the key... The instrument rating teaches you limits that need
to be worked on. Can I shoot a 0/0 approach right now? I seriously
doubt it. Can I get it on the ground safely? Well its for certain I
can feel better about it with my IMC experience and ratings than if I
didn't have it/them.
Get your instrument rating and you'll never be sorry about it. If you
are like me, even driving your driving a car will improve!
Ol Shy & Bashful

One question conspicuously missing from this thread is:

"Where do you live and/or fly?"

There are parts of the US where a casual flyer might fly two years without
encountering actual IMC conditions. Does anyone seriously think that adds up
to currency.

Another question is: "How much flying will you be able to afford to do, in
terms of both other financial and other time commitments." This, too, will
be a factor in maintaining currency.

As I always note, I'm still a wannabe, waiting for the Sport Pilot
Certificate to be approved, but you can pick up a lot of good information
from even a little bit of reading.

But the issue here is not about a reasonably current and experienced pilot
launching into "hard" IMC. The issue is about a current pilot who hasn't
flown actual IMC in a year who goes into a fairly benign cloud, becomes
disoriented, and breaks his airplane.

And from what I've read, this happens far more often than you would imagine.

No offense to anyone here, but any advice that doesn't include the factors
I've mentioned is not very good advice. You always have to consider
everything...


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
ink.net...
I had always planned on getting my instrument rating- within the next
year, probably. But last weekend I had a chat with someone who really
got me thinking about it.

This guy is a friend of a friend and is a retired 20,000 hour ATP.
Retired in the 80s flying 707s and I forget what else. Instructed in
Cubs for years. (Guy has nine count 'em nine engine failures in Cubs!
Two inside 20 minutes once!)

So, this is what he told me: unless I'm going to be flying 3 times/week
at least, getting my instrument ticket is a waste and possibly dangerous
as well. He thinks I'll be more likely to end up dead with it than
without it. (Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)

Thoughts on this??

On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:37:37 -0600, "Bill Denton"
wrote:

But the issue here is not about a reasonably current and experienced pilot
launching into "hard" IMC. The issue is about a current pilot who hasn't
flown actual IMC in a year who goes into a fairly benign cloud, becomes
disoriented, and breaks his airplane.

The OP's issue was whether or not to undergo instrument training. He wrote
nothing about exercising the kind of poor judgement you describe.

The issue you are writing about has to do with "judgement". Do you really
believe that an instrument rating will lead a pilot who ordinarily
exercises good judgement to exercise poor judgement? If so, I would
disagree and would argue that that pilot will exercise poor judgement
whether or not he has an instrument rating.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:53:29 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote in Message-Id:
. net:


So, this is what he told me: unless I'm going to be flying 3 times/week
at least, getting my instrument ticket is a waste and possibly dangerous
as well. He thinks I'll be more likely to end up dead with it than
without it. (Logic being, obviously, that the ticket will give me such
a sense of security that I won't be afraid of hard IMC even when I'm not
current enough to handle it.)

Thoughts on this??

Instrument training in and of itself is a "good thing™." It will make
you a more knowledgable and professional airman.

That said, if you lack the good sense to know your limitations, no
amount of training will save you.