To the guy writing the heli lesson diary:

I don't post here often but I have read w/ interest your diary of
flight lessons. A few questions if you don't mind:
Why are you cooling down an R22 ( I assume from your threads that is
what you're flying) for five minutes before you disengage the clutch?
R22 checklists state a 2 minute cooldown before clutch disengage. The
factory says it doesn't need even 2 minutes if you get substantial
cylinder head temp reduction in less time. I cannot imagine a flight
school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
before clutch release. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
you are paying for Hobbs time.
Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
for full left pedal. Ever. The R22 has very good tail rotor
characteristics as opposed to some of the Bell's and others that can
get you in trouble quickly with their less than ideal tail rotor
designs that allow tail rotor vortices to form quickly in the wrong
wind conditions, so I find it incredible that you got the ship so
twisted that it was necessary for you to bottom the left pedal to get
the ship back in trim.
And that your CFI never took over??!!!!!! Maybe you just thought you
used all left pedal? If not, get your ship checked out pronto, though
I seriously doubt that you used all left pedal as you stated. Your CFI
would have been on the controls very fast had this actually been the
case or either he's wanting to get a new ship!
You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.
A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
not became heli pilots.
Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
(inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
can assure you this is not the way it's done.
Regards,
Mark
N26394

(helicopterandy) wrote in message . com...
I don't post here often but I have read w/ interest your diary of
flight lessons. A few questions if you don't mind:
Why are you cooling down an R22 ( I assume from your threads that is
what you're flying) for five minutes before you disengage the clutch?
R22 checklists state a 2 minute cooldown before clutch disengage. The
factory says it doesn't need even 2 minutes if you get substantial
cylinder head temp reduction in less time. I cannot imagine a flight
school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
before clutch release. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
you are paying for Hobbs time.
Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
for full left pedal. Ever. The R22 has very good tail rotor
characteristics as opposed to some of the Bell's and others that can
get you in trouble quickly with their less than ideal tail rotor
designs that allow tail rotor vortices to form quickly in the wrong
wind conditions, so I find it incredible that you got the ship so
twisted that it was necessary for you to bottom the left pedal to get
the ship back in trim.
And that your CFI never took over??!!!!!! Maybe you just thought you
used all left pedal? If not, get your ship checked out pronto, though
I seriously doubt that you used all left pedal as you stated. Your CFI
would have been on the controls very fast had this actually been the
case or either he's wanting to get a new ship!
You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.
A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
not became heli pilots.
Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
(inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
can assure you this is not the way it's done.
Regards,
Mark
N26394
PS
Take a look at the "RobinsonR22helicopters" forum on Yahoo Groups for
a bit more educational forum.
Regards,
Mark

"helicopterandy" wrote in message
om...
I don't post here often

and judging by your attitude later in this thread I'm sure most of us are
glad you don't.

I cannot imagine a flight
school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
collective time.

The R22 datcon works on engine running. The 44 runs on collective time.

If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
before clutch release.

Depends how hot you got it and the ambient temperature. You are looking for
_significant_ CHT reduction so as not to shock cool the engine, not an
arbitrary time. If the school owns the aircraft I'm sure they want the
engine to go TBO and so treat it kindly.

Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
you are paying for Hobbs time.

And I suppose they then run the clock back so they can avoid the time-due
maintenance the extra hobbs time would have clocked up?

Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
for full left pedal. Ever.

Presumably then you haven't flown one in a stiff wind? A gusty crosswind
from the right can easily demand some heavy left pedal.

You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.

He didn't say violent, just shimmying and shaking. A slow and high approach
will do this. Once ETL is lost the thing will be hovering OGE and bangs
about bit. OK it's on the wrong part of both the curves that matter but
sometimes it's the safest or only way into a landing area. It doesn't make
it abnormal, just not ideal.

It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
not became heli pilots.

This is usenet, nothing to do with google.

Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
(inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
can assure you this is not the way it's done.

From memory I think I found the whole training thing full of adjectives.
What seems normal now seemed fraught a few years ago.

Regards
Andrew

The R22 datcon works on engine running. The 44 runs on collective time.

That varies a bit. My machine R22 has both meters (as do many)
You are allowed to choose one or the other as your "metered Time" but you
can't change from one to the other. If you use standard Hobbs on the oil
pressure line use the numbers as they are shown. If you choose to use the
collective meter you have to multiply the time by 1.12 to get the time.

arbitrary time. If the school owns the aircraft I'm sure they want the
engine to go TBO and so treat it kindly.

Long runs at low engine RPMs have a propensity to foul up the plugs if the
temp is already down. Especially the lower ones. If the engine is hot then
its fair enough but after 5 mins I would have thought it was cooled enough.

a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop

Yep. try it in a howling crosswind. Had it so strong at times that full left
pedal wasn't enough. In that case - settle into the wind put it down. forget
about trying to line it up with the H. Come back later with the wheels and
turn it round.
He didn't say violent, just shimmying and shaking. A slow and high
approach

Maybe those cross winds again?

Kevin,
Keep up the good work and the diary...I've really enjoyed following along with
you as I'm a 41yr old fart in the same point in life, and have experienced most
of what you write about. Will be doing my first solo cross country next week!
Hang in there. Fly safe!
Dave in Toledo

Andy: I'm sure that you follow your own advice and don't shoot your mouth
off about something of which you have little knowledge. I'm therefore
assuming that you have time in both the Safaris and Rotorways. I would be
curious to hear of your experiences in these ships. I'm more than willing to
listen and learn from someone who has more experience and knowledge than I
have. I have PIC time in Schweitzer 300CB, the Bell 47, a Safari, with some
stick time in a Brantly, Rotorway, and even the Groen Bros. new two seat
gyrocopter; and in the old days built and taught myself to fly a Benson
gyrocopter. I've had a PPSEL since the late 50's and my PPH for 3yrs. I
just finished showing my Safari, that I built and in which have accumulated
200hrs, to the Chief Test Pilot Instructor from the Test Pilot School in
Mojave CA.. He is looking forward to a ride in the ship. I think that this
guy qualifies as an expert on helicopters. He has written a well received
book on helicopters. I believe that he knows quite a bit more about the
aerodynamics and flight characteristics of more different helicopters than
most people will ever see, let alone fly. Does this qualify him as a member
of the "death wish crowd that have very limited knowledg about flyin"?
I think that in some cases you have offered pretty good advice that you
don't find necessary to follow yourself.
Stu Fields Safari pilot.
"helicopterandy" wrote in message
om...
I don't post here often but I have read w/ interest your diary of
flight lessons. A few questions if you don't mind:
Why are you cooling down an R22 ( I assume from your threads that is
what you're flying) for five minutes before you disengage the clutch?
R22 checklists state a 2 minute cooldown before clutch disengage. The
factory says it doesn't need even 2 minutes if you get substantial
cylinder head temp reduction in less time. I cannot imagine a flight
school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
before clutch release. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
you are paying for Hobbs time.
Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
for full left pedal. Ever. The R22 has very good tail rotor
characteristics as opposed to some of the Bell's and others that can
get you in trouble quickly with their less than ideal tail rotor
designs that allow tail rotor vortices to form quickly in the wrong
wind conditions, so I find it incredible that you got the ship so
twisted that it was necessary for you to bottom the left pedal to get
the ship back in trim.
And that your CFI never took over??!!!!!! Maybe you just thought you
used all left pedal? If not, get your ship checked out pronto, though
I seriously doubt that you used all left pedal as you stated. Your CFI
would have been on the controls very fast had this actually been the
case or either he's wanting to get a new ship!
You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.
A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
not became heli pilots.
Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
(inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
can assure you this is not the way it's done.
Regards,
Mark
N26394

Hello,
Sorry if I offended you with the "death-wish statement". That was over
the top but the accident records speak for themselves. The rate for
accidents per hour flown for the experimentals FAR exceeds any other
helicopter. And please don't start going on and on about there being
more Robinsons w/ wrecks than experimentals. Of course there is. There
are 100's more Robbies in the air than there will ever be flying
experimentals. That would be like saying a Ford Taurus is more
dangerous to drive than a Lamborgini, since more Tauruses have
accidents than Lamborginis. So please don't even try to go there.
Your Safari may be well and good and if you and your MR. TEST PILOT
friend (test pilot, that tells me he's more than capable of accepting
risk) then more power to ya! I for one love my life and wouldn't fly
in your Safari/Rotorway/whatever experimental at gunpoint. Never,
ever. I don't care who "assembled" it.
Not trying to put you down, just my opine about these scary machines.
Regards,
Mark

"Kathryn & Stuart Fields" wrote in message ...
Andy: I'm sure that you follow your own advice and don't shoot your mouth
off about something of which you have little knowledge. I'm therefore
assuming that you have time in both the Safaris and Rotorways. I would be
curious to hear of your experiences in these ships. I'm more than willing to
listen and learn from someone who has more experience and knowledge than I
have. I have PIC time in Schweitzer 300CB, the Bell 47, a Safari, with some
stick time in a Brantly, Rotorway, and even the Groen Bros. new two seat
gyrocopter; and in the old days built and taught myself to fly a Benson
gyrocopter. I've had a PPSEL since the late 50's and my PPH for 3yrs. I
just finished showing my Safari, that I built and in which have accumulated
200hrs, to the Chief Test Pilot Instructor from the Test Pilot School in
Mojave CA.. He is looking forward to a ride in the ship. I think that this
guy qualifies as an expert on helicopters. He has written a well received
book on helicopters. I believe that he knows quite a bit more about the
aerodynamics and flight characteristics of more different helicopters than
most people will ever see, let alone fly. Does this qualify him as a member
of the "death wish crowd that have very limited knowledg about flyin"?
I think that in some cases you have offered pretty good advice that you
don't find necessary to follow yourself.
Stu Fields Safari pilot.
"helicopterandy" wrote in message
om...
I don't post here often but I have read w/ interest your diary of
flight lessons. A few questions if you don't mind:
Why are you cooling down an R22 ( I assume from your threads that is
what you're flying) for five minutes before you disengage the clutch?
R22 checklists state a 2 minute cooldown before clutch disengage. The
factory says it doesn't need even 2 minutes if you get substantial
cylinder head temp reduction in less time. I cannot imagine a flight
school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
before clutch release. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
you are paying for Hobbs time.
Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
for full left pedal. Ever. The R22 has very good tail rotor
characteristics as opposed to some of the Bell's and others that can
get you in trouble quickly with their less than ideal tail rotor
designs that allow tail rotor vortices to form quickly in the wrong
wind conditions, so I find it incredible that you got the ship so
twisted that it was necessary for you to bottom the left pedal to get
the ship back in trim.
And that your CFI never took over??!!!!!! Maybe you just thought you
used all left pedal? If not, get your ship checked out pronto, though
I seriously doubt that you used all left pedal as you stated. Your CFI
would have been on the controls very fast had this actually been the
case or either he's wanting to get a new ship!
You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.
A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
not became heli pilots.
Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
(inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
can assure you this is not the way it's done.
Regards,
Mark
N26394