Bush needs to clean up his mess

Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

:
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
: ...
:
: 2) If guilty, they'll wind up tried and convicted and in the military
: prison in Leavenworth (if they don't draw a death penalty, which is
: pretty unlikely in a military court).
:
:So far, every man convicted of contributing to the murders at
:Bagram has returned to duty. That does not inspire much
:confidence.

Circumstances alter cases, no matter how much you might dislike it.

In these cases the circumstances seem to be that there were photos
of the abuses at Abu Ghraib, but none from Bagram, and so there
was more publicity about the lesser crimes at Abu Ghraib. That's
the fault of the media, and I blame them for being irresponsible.

The sentences handed down appear to have depended more on the
publicity surrounding the cases, than on the severity of the crimes.
That I blame on the people running our courts-martial.


: 3) They're being held in a military brig here in the States, with
: conditions probably worse than those in Cuba.
:
:Held in a brig, sure. Worse than in Cuba, not likely.

Don't know much about either military brigs or Cuba, do you?


I haven't been to either, have you?

--

FF

Fred J. McCall wrote:
[snip]


South Korea is an independent, relatively free nation. South Vietnam
is what?

Full of exploited proletariat living under a feudal system straight out
of the early middle ages.

Andrew Swallow

wrote:

:
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
: wrote:
:
: :
: :Fred J. McCall wrote:
: :
: : ...
: :
: : 2) If guilty, they'll wind up tried and convicted and in the military
: : prison in Leavenworth (if they don't draw a death penalty, which is
: : pretty unlikely in a military court).
: :
: :So far, every man convicted of contributing to the murders at
: :Bagram has returned to duty. That does not inspire much
: :confidence.
:
: Circumstances alter cases, no matter how much you might dislike it.
:
:In these cases the circumstances seem to be that there were photos
f the abuses at Abu Ghraib, but none from Bagram, and so there
:was more publicity about the lesser crimes at Abu Ghraib. That's
:the fault of the media, and I blame them for being irresponsible.
:
:The sentences handed down appear to have depended more on the
ublicity surrounding the cases, than on the severity of the crimes.
:That I blame on the people running our courts-martial.

And you are familiar with all the facts of all the cases, so that you
can arrive at these conclusions? Or do you merely arrive at them out
of thin air?

: : 3) They're being held in a military brig here in the States, with
: : conditions probably worse than those in Cuba.
: :
: :Held in a brig, sure. Worse than in Cuba, not likely.
:
: Don't know much about either military brigs or Cuba, do you?
:
:I haven't been to either, have you?

Yes, I have. And one needn't have been somewhere to actually know
something about it, in any case. One need merely have the desire to
check the facts; a desire that you virtually always seem to lack.

--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates

Andrew Swallow wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:[snip]
:
:
: South Korea is an independent, relatively free nation. South Vietnam
: is what?
:
:Full of exploited proletariat living under a feudal system straight out
f the early middle ages.

"Exploited proletariat"?

snicker

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

:
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
: wrote:
:
: :
: :Fred J. McCall wrote:
: :
: : ...
: :
: : 2) If guilty, they'll wind up tried and convicted and in the military
: : prison in Leavenworth (if they don't draw a death penalty, which is
: : pretty unlikely in a military court).
: :
: :So far, every man convicted of contributing to the murders at
: :Bagram has returned to duty. That does not inspire much
: :confidence.
:
: Circumstances alter cases, no matter how much you might dislike it.
:
:In these cases the circumstances seem to be that there were photos
f the abuses at Abu Ghraib, but none from Bagram, and so there
:was more publicity about the lesser crimes at Abu Ghraib. That's
:the fault of the media, and I blame them for being irresponsible.
:
:The sentences handed down appear to have depended more on the
ublicity surrounding the cases, than on the severity of the crimes.
:That I blame on the people running our courts-martial.

And you are familiar with all the facts of all the cases,

No one is familiar with all the facts of all the cases.

--

FF

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:05:23 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

From a military point of view, that's like complaining about geography:
why do the enemy never let you assault them downhill, over dry ground
with good going yet plenty of nice concealing folds and tussocks, on a
day not so hot you sweat to death during the assault nor so cold that
certain important bits froze off waiting for H-Hour?

There is a larger issue about the extent to which the military
perspective is influenced by external social and cultural issues.
Geography is (largely) beyond human agency to inform or alter, at
least in the short term. The meejah issue is more malleable - my
parallel would be to ask why are the Blue forces required to attack
uphill, in poor weather, against prepared Red defences while their own
supporting arms are curtailed? Why is the behaviour of Red Forces to
kidnap, multilate and murder civilians and combatants alike not
subjected to the same level of "war crimes" scrutiny?

This is the problem for the military in places like Iraq - the
subjective application of double-standards and the perpetuation of
assumptive judgements formed and supported b the meejah. In many
cases they reflect the assumptions of the host culture, but while that
explains them, it does not legitimise them.

"The meeja" exist as they are, just as the weather and the ground and
the enemy do. Good commanders do what they can to gain benefit from them
(like, making sure 'Our Story' is better TV than 'Their Story') while
limiting the damage they can do. Not easy, but that's why good
commanders are to be cherished.

Indeed, but even without counter-propaganda, the doublethink,
groupthink and downright hypocrisy of normal meejah coverage should
not pass without question or challenge. This is a meejah problem in
the first instance, as the meejah have as much responsibility to
police each other as they do to bring politicians and generals down.
Their failure to do this makes the problem a larger cultural and
social one.

Gavin Bailey
--
I have enough of Windows error message which say "Intelligent life
not detected at keyboard." You hear me good Bill! Not mess Eastern
devil warrior. Yeah like Jackie Chan. Worse Bart Kwan-En.
- Bart Kwan En

Fred J. McCall schrieb:

Vince wrote:

:I was inside the beltway all through the Vietnam War. ...

Yes. And so you know more than the folks who were there doing the
fighting. Or so you think.

:I remember the skillful means by which the vast majority of the "rich,
:well born OR emphasize OR able" avoided the Jungles and rice paddies.

Yes, well everyone wasn't like you, Vinnie. I find it funny that you
hate George Bush and try to smear him with claims that he 'dodged the
draft' by going in the National Guard, while at the same time you love
Clinton and make statements like the preceding.

Feh!

--
"Der Fiege droht nur, wo er sicher ist."
--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

I´m quite sure Goethe wrote "Der Feige droht nur, wo er sicher ist." ;-)

Moritz Wünsch wrote:

:Fred J. McCall schrieb:
:
: Vince wrote:
:
: :I was inside the beltway all through the Vietnam War. ...
:
: Yes. And so you know more than the folks who were there doing the
: fighting. Or so you think.
:
: :I remember the skillful means by which the vast majority of the "rich,
: :well born OR emphasize OR able" avoided the Jungles and rice paddies.
:
: Yes, well everyone wasn't like you, Vinnie. I find it funny that you
: hate George Bush and try to smear him with claims that he 'dodged the
: draft' by going in the National Guard, while at the same time you love
: Clinton and make statements like the preceding.
:
: Feh!
:
: --
: "Der Fiege droht nur, wo er sicher ist."
: --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
:
:I´m quite sure Goethe wrote "Der Feige droht nur, wo er sicher ist." ;-)

Damned keyboard has a mind of its own....

--
"The way of the samurai is found in death. If by setting one's heart
right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his
body were already dead, he gains freedom in The Way. His whole life
will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling."
-- "Hagakure Kikigaki", Yamamoto Tsunetomo

Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:

:
:Fred J. McCall wrote:
...
:
: Along about 1964 we should have sunk everything in Haiphong Harbor,
: leveled Hanoi and put a million men in the country marching north.
:
:Because that strategy worked so well in Korea?

South Korea is an independent, relatively free nation. South Vietnam
is what?

Your point is well made. The Russian threat to use nuclear
weapons should we send ground forces North of the DMZ was
NOT widely published (to say the least) at the time. How well
established is that?

Assuming it was true, keep in mind the perception that it was
the Cuban missle crisis that knocked Kruschev out of power.




In another article in this thread, (direct replies via Google have
expired)

Ed Rasimus wrote:
...

That canard about who went to war and who went to the Guard has been
discussed at length in R.A.M. Flying single seat, single engine
tactical jets for 4.5 years trumps driving a fishing boat upriver for
six months and then calling everyone you served with a war criminal in
the balance of most of the folks I deal with.

A great many men served on the Swift Boats. Refering to them
as "fishing boats" denigrates the service of all of those men,
not just the one whom you dislike.

As to why he chose fighter jets, GWB (who flew for a bit less
than four years but that's a nit) said he enlisted in the Texas
AFNG as a alternative to service in Vietnam.

--

FF