SAFETY ALERT

On Aug 24, 9:52*am, Cookie wrote:

You really think ANY of the recent accidents are attributed to
dehydration?

Maybe.

A CFIG crashed their personal single place high performance ship due
to an off field landing over run. Current, plenty of time in type,
etc. The pilot had been pulling on (wait for it) the *release handle*
instead of opening the spoilers. Dehydrated? You bet. This may have
been (I am speculating, but have reason to speculate) a "can't pee in
the glider" scenario in which the pilot was intentionally dehydrating
before flight.

Cookie, I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but I think on
this issue you have some homework to do.

Naturally, it's the PIC's job to keep the PIC healthy.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

btw, don't you instruct here?: http://tinyurl.com/3e4hlcs

Can you teach me to fly the '21 like that :-)? (sorry, I'm a natural
born wiseacre, couldn't resist)

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:07:57 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

100 knots is certainly on the slow side. 120 is much better. That gives
you an expected (120/5)^2 - 100 = 476 ft to play with.

Agreed, but mine is not a B series, so that's just over Vne, so I can't
see a good reason for intentionally going there outside an emergency in a
42 year old glider. 110 kts maybe, but thats 384 ft with 50kt pushover -
still pretty marginal.

Wikipedia says the Std Libelle has a 250 km/h (135 knot) Vne. Is that
incorrect?

That's a B series.

Mine is earlier (balsa wing skins, top & bottom airbrakes, s/n 82) the BGA
data sheet quotes 119kts for Vne. All other limiting speeds apart from
Vne are the same for both original and B series.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 8/23/2011 11:12 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On 8/23/2011 11:39 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Snip...

Those of us who are concerned with safety will act accordingly and seek
the information we need. The others will simply nod their heads and then
ignore the message. The only way to make them safe is to ground them and
none of us have the authority nor the right to do that (unless they're
flying club equipment).

No cynicism intended, "I'll second these observations." Human nature is real.

Major Snip...


There are a lot of people who see something unsafe happening and don't speak
up. Whether they assume that the other party already knows about it, or they
don't think it's any of their business, or they are concerned about sounding
like a know it all.....

"Roger all the above." ...or they're concerned about their opinions being
poo-pooed/dissed/treated dismissively, or being subjected to ad-hominem
attacks...regrettably, there's a lengthy list of possible silencing influences.

That's part of the culture that needs to change. Everyone needs to speak up
when they see something that doesn't look right. Often the message may be a
false alarm or ignored, but every now and then it might save someone's life.

"What Mike said, about culture." It matters, and the most effective inputs to
Joe Average Club Gliderpilot I've yet seen has been peer pressure. I've also
seen peer pressure work well at a commercial glider FBO.
- - - - - -

The rest of this post is some strictly anecdotal - if historically/personally
based, broad-brush, observational support of the preceding paragraph.

Here's my (U.S.-based) observations and assessments the safety cultures of 3
clubs to which I've belonged.

But first, a summary for short-attention-span readers:
- club 'safety culture' has a LOT of inertia;
- (in my experience) a good argument can be made for a club's safety culture
directly affecting its day-to-day operations and safety record.

Club A: member 9/'72-4/'74; had an obvious, top-to-bottom (in
member-experience terms) concern for members' safety-related habits. Also had
a wide range of age and experience, with obvious respect granted those with
more experience, yet without giving them a free-ride in situations where they
'did dumb things.' No whiff of "Do as I say, not as I do," hypocrisy that the
youngest, newest, least-experienced club member (23-year-old me) could sense.
In hindsight, a club that then had a 'to be emulated/envied' safety culture,
despite also then having a world-record-O&R ridge running pilot/FAA-examiner
and several other serious contest pilots as members. No accidents/mild-prangs
during my short tenure. I was volunteered LOTS of tips and safety-related
inputs/reading/conversations...and eagerly lapped it up.

Club B: member 5/'74-9/'75; had no detectable-to-me club safety culture at
all. Slightly smaller than Club A (~40 vs. 60-ish social-to-active members).
No accidents/mild-prangs during my short tenure. I felt then, its overall
cultural environment was 'less inherently beneficial to Joe Newbie' than was
Club A's, mostly from the relative absence of 'club-encouraged generic
input/peer pressure.' Not until I got to know some club members personally,
was I privy to 'club culture.' Essentially the then-existing 'club culture'
seemed more akin to 'corporate ownership of shared assets' to me.

Club C: participant/member 9/'75-today, during which time club
social-to-active membership has varied from ~60 to ~160. Club C's basic
culture seemed/was similar to Club B when I arrived on the scene. Since then
I've seen its safety culture run the gamut from 'none immediately obvious to
me' to 'much better,' to 'slapdash in pursuit of
instructors/towpilots/growth,' to 'similar to Club A's.' Happily, the 21st
century culture has been essentially a positive, active, worth-emulating sort.
Over my observational span, the Club has had a number of incidents to
tugs/gliders, the most serious to the former (that I can recall) being a prop
strike of a 180HP Super Cub. I can recall 1 glider being insurance-totalled in
that span. No fatalities; no hospital-worthy injuries. Fleet size: tug -
originally i, now 2; gliders - originally 2, now 6.

It's worth noting that *changes* in Club C's safety culture have mostly
evolved very slowly...I would say the safety culture has been resistant to
change from the perspective of anyone actively trying to effect some sort of
sea change, in the absence of 'a shocking event.' Most of the
non-significant-event-based cultural changes evolved as club membership
evolved. The most rapid changes (to-date-lasting) occurred as a result
insurance-pressures (i.e. the inability to retain hull coverage at any
'reasonable rate'). This event occurred a few years into the club's 'slapdash
in pursuit of instructors/towpilots/growth' cultural phase.
- - - - - -

On Aug 24, 8:47*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:07:57 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:
100 knots is certainly on the slow side. 120 is much better. That gives
you an expected (120/5)^2 - 100 = 476 ft to play with.

Agreed, but mine is not a B series, so that's just over Vne, so I can't
see a good reason for intentionally going there outside an emergency in a
42 year old glider. 110 kts maybe, but thats 384 ft with 50kt pushover -
still pretty marginal.

Wikipedia says the Std Libelle has a 250 km/h (135 knot) Vne. Is that
incorrect?

That's a B series.

Mine is earlier (balsa wing skins, top & bottom airbrakes, s/n 82) the BGA
data sheet quotes 119kts for Vne. *All other limiting speeds apart from
Vne are the same for both original and B series.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

I have pics of 201 Libelles doing low finishes... with the wing tips
drooping noticeably. I don't know if the wing is twisting or just has
a bunch of washout to begin with, but it doesn't look happy going that
fast. And that was brand new.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

I always love to read Bob's posts and I always learn something.

However...

Those of us who are concerned with safety will act accordingly and seek
the information we need. The others will simply nod their heads and then
ignore the message. The only way to make them safe is to ground them and
none of us have the authority nor the right to do that (unless they're
flying club equipment).

There is another authority. That friendly guy with his own glider
getting a tow from the FBO may be an off duty FAA Principal Operations
Inspector. (A fair number of FAA people fly gliders.) He loves
soaring and soaring people but he viscerally hates pilots whose
careless attitude mucks it up for everyone else. Don't cross him if
you value your pilots certificate.

At 04:07 24 August 2011, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Vne for the Std Libelle is 118kts.

Vne for Std Cirrus is about the same.

135kts is probably quite exciting in either

PF

Wikipedia says the Std Libelle has a 250 km/h (135 knot) Vne. Is that
incorrect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasfl=FCgel_H-201

On Aug 24, 2:34*pm, T8 wrote:
On Aug 24, 9:52*am, Cookie wrote:

You really think ANY of the recent accidents are attributed to
dehydration?

Maybe.

A CFIG crashed their personal single place high performance ship due
to an off field landing over run. *Current, plenty of time in type,
etc. *The pilot had been pulling on (wait for it) the *release handle*
instead of opening the spoilers. *Dehydrated? *You bet. *This may have
been (I am speculating, but have reason to speculate) a "can't pee in
the glider" scenario in which the pilot was intentionally dehydrating
before flight.

Cookie, I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but I think on
this issue you have some homework to do.

Naturally, it's the PIC's job to keep the PIC healthy.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

btw, don't you instruct here?: *http://tinyurl.com/3e4hlcs

Can you teach me to fly the '21 like that :-)? *(sorry, I'm a natural
born wiseacre, couldn't resist)

Yes I teach there, but not that....but that video was done long before
I got on the scene there.......Proably not a good thing to have on a
web site.....

Dehydration? Keep that one in your bag of excuses. For airplanes
always use "carburator ice"...

This pulling on the wrong handle is a fairly common mistake....for
beginners especially....I see it all the time...

Flap handle and spoiler handle mixed up.....release and spoiler
handle mixed up......at release they open the spoiler.

One of our club Larks got totalled this way......pilot applied full
spoiler, then modulated the flaps thru the pattern...came up "just a
bit" short.........

Early 1-26 .....the handles look about the same spoiler and
release...

Lark and Blanik...flap and spoiler handle close together and look the
same.....Blanik had AD or service bulliten to change the handles to
look and feel different for this reason.........

Gee...and all that was needed was some water?

Since you were up at WB this summer...the guy who flew thru two
fences...dehydration????

Cookie

On Aug 24, 10:44*pm, Bill D wrote:
I always love to read Bob's posts and I always learn something.

However...

Those of us who are concerned with safety will act accordingly and seek
the information we need. The others will simply nod their heads and then
ignore the message. The only way to make them safe is to ground them and
none of us have the authority nor the right to do that (unless they're
flying club equipment).

There is another authority. *That friendly guy with his own glider
getting a tow from the FBO may be an off duty FAA Principal Operations
Inspector. *(A fair number of FAA people fly gliders.) He loves
soaring and soaring people but he viscerally hates pilots whose
careless attitude mucks it up for everyone else. *Don't cross him if
you value your pilots certificate.

Good point....I was going to suggest that those proponents of the low
pass....come out and demonstrate the technique, while I invite some of
our "friends" form the FAA to watch and comment...

Cookie

On Aug 23, 7:38*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
On Aug 21, 11:04*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:





I regularly get safety alerts (bulletins, notices) from the FAA and
AOPA, but I never get one from the SSA. I went digging to see if the
SSA had a similar program. I went to SSA home page, then to SSA
Partners..........Hmm, safety isn't a primary concern of the SSA and
is relegated to a soaring partner?
Then to Soaring Safety Foundation, then to Accident Prevention, then
to Advisory Notices and I actually found one! Yep on 5/23/05 the SSF
pumped out a Notice about props on solo engines.

We have just had 5 fatal accidents within the last 45 days and not a
peep out of the SSA or the 'partner' SSF.
I submit the following that might have been published (but wasn't):

1 July, 2011 * Glider crashes after initiating practice rope preak at
200 feet!
* * * * * * * * * * * 1 dead, 1 severly injured
SSA recommends practice rope breaks not be done below 500 feet and
only after thoroughly briefing before the flight. Briefing to include
altitude at which rope break will be initiated and pilots intended
actions.
All are reminded that a simple 180 degree turn will place the glider
parallel to, but not ovet the departure runway. Recommend a 90 / 270
when returning to departure runway (altitude permitting).

15 July, 2011 * *Glider spoilers open after takeoff, tow pilot gave
rudder-wag (check spoilers) which was misunderstood. Glider crashed
into trees.
* * * * * * * * * * * *1 dead, *1 seriously injured
This accident could have been prevented with a simple call from the
tow pilot to "close your spoilers", had radios been required by the
club or FBO.
SSA recommends all gliders and tow planes be equipped with radios and
a com-check be performed before all takeoffs. The com-check will
insure both radios are on, tuned to the same frequency, volume up,
squelch set and battery charged.

8 July, 2011 * * Off field landing accident (motor glider)
* * * * * * * * * * * *1 dead
SSA recommends that all gliders keep a suitable landing spot within
gliding distance at all times and engine starts not be attempted below
1500 agl.

JJ Sinclair
(for the SSA that could be)

CONCLUSIONS
Well, I hope those who have been following this thread have learned
some things, because this is the last you'll hear about it. In a
couple of months the SSF will warn about complacency and the need for
more training, then they will dutifully add 6 more to the 'fatal
accident' column and 8 to the 'destroyed' column and that will be the
end of it. One thing for sure there will be no mention of flying
without radios, 200 foot practice rope-breaks (aka practice bleeding)
or low passes. Its up to each one of us to decide what is in our best
interests. Tow pilots that goes for you also, there have been all too
many checks in the tow plane/pilot column recently. *I have made it
crystal clear where I stand on these, where do you stand?
Cheers,
JJ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My conclusions....

JJ recipe for safety:

Safety = 2 way radio + safety alert + drink of water = SAFE PILOT

Cookie recipe for safety:

Intelligence, knowledge, common sense, reason, problem solving,
judgment, planning working under pressure, training, practice,
proficiency, continued learning, learning from mistakes, learning from
other’s mistakes, taking advice, taking criticism, piloting skills,
coordination, using proven procedures, situational awareness, grasp of
reality, self reliance, self preservation, self control, self respect,
knowing one's limitations, flying within one's limitations, a
conservative approach to flying, ego in check.




Cookie

On 8/25/2011 8:17 AM, Cookie wrote:
My conclusions....

JJ recipe for safety:

Safety = 2 way radio + safety alert + drink of water = SAFE PILOT

Cookie recipe for safety:

Intelligence, knowledge, common sense, reason, problem solving,
judgment, planning working under pressure, training, practice,
proficiency, continued learning, learning from mistakes, learning from
other’s mistakes, taking advice, taking criticism, piloting skills,
coordination, using proven procedures, situational awareness, grasp of
reality, self reliance, self preservation, self control, self respect,
knowing one's limitations, flying within one's limitations, a
conservative approach to flying, ego in check.

Cookie


Cookie:
You appear to be out of line.
You need to get to know the posters, or, at least their past writings
and experiences.
Even if you disagree with them, study them and learn.
Your writings have given some of us the impression that your are a new
"hotshot" CFI with only the basics of experience and little real life
knowledge beyond studying.

Walk away from the computer keyboard, kick back, and take some of your
own advice:
continued learning, learning from mistakes, learning from
other’s mistakes, taking advice, taking criticism,

Go fly, teach, learn how to become a CFI, apply the rest of the values
you outline and actually learn how to approach the subject of
instruction, safety, and aviation.
In the mean time, educate yourself, with good and bad information from
the experience of those that have actually done what you are now trying
to experience.