SAFETY ALERT

Cookie recipe for safety:

learning from
other’s mistakes,

That's what this whole discussion has been about, but you still don't
get it. I am suggesting ways to prevent making the same mistake that
these 6 dead pilots made.

You don't seem to believe that dehydration can cause an accident, let
me tell you about some cases where you can "learn from other's
mistakes".

Cal City Regionals, pilot flying an Open Cirrus approached the finish
line at 50 feet and about 50 knots, all thought he would just land
straight ahead, but just after he crossed the line, he pulled up,
stalled and killed himself right in front of the finish gate. The only
plausible explanation is he must have slowely bled off his airspeed,
but didn't realize it and thought he was going 150, not 50. No water
bottle was found in the wreckage. Dehydration can do that kind of
thing to the mind.

Another pilot flying a Ventus B was seen about 5pm, circling so low
that he was casting a shadow and then crashed, still circling! Pilot
doesn't remember anything after breakfast that day. Dehydration can do
that kind of thing to the mind.

Another instructor pilot with thousands of hours in gliders stalled
his 1-26 turning final to an off-field landing about 4pm. He hadn't
had a dring of water all day! Dehydration can do that kind of thing to
the mind.

Food (water) for thought,
JJ

JJ recipe for safety:

Safety *= 2 way radio + safety alert + drink of water = SAFE PILOT

Cookie recipe for safety:

Intelligence, knowledge, common sense, reason, problem solving,
judgment, planning working under pressure, training, practice,
proficiency, continued learning, learning from mistakes, learning from
other’s mistakes, taking advice, taking criticism, piloting skills,
coordination, using proven procedures, situational awareness, grasp of
reality, self reliance, self preservation, self control, self respect,
knowing one's limitations, flying within one's limitations, a
conservative approach to flying, ego in check.

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wow, Cookie, you are so full of yourself it boggles the imagination.

JJ (and just about everybody else who has been on this thread) has
contributed rational comments.

You, on the other hand, dismiss proven safety issues (dehydration not
a possible factor? really? ever fly out west by any chance?
unbelievable!).

You also dismiss the proven benefit of technology (radios, stall
warning, FLARM, etc), applied intelligently, with a casual "oh just
pay attention and fly better blah blah blah" approach. What are you, a
card carrying Luddite?

And you are a CFI. And presumably this is what you teach your
students!

Doesn't say much for our method of making instructors.

And I pity your students, they will have a lot to learn after you are
done with them!

Kirk
66

On Aug 25, 7:09*am, Cookie wrote:
On Aug 24, 2:34*pm, T8 wrote:


On Aug 24, 9:52*am, Cookie wrote:

You really think ANY of the recent accidents are attributed to
dehydration?

Maybe.

Gee...and all that was needed was some water?

Since you were up at WB this summer...the guy who flew thru two
fences...dehydration????



Grrrrrrr. Sorry about the wall of text to follow.

I don't have a bag of excuses, thank you very much and I didn't say
that dehydration was the "cause" of the accident. You completely blew
off the point of my post. Yep, "all we need is water." "All we need
is oxygen." "All we need is to put the airplane together correctly."
If the PIC gets sufficiently dehydrated, his brain turns to oatmeal.
It's a process that although slower, can be nearly as debilitating as
hypoxia and just as dangerous as a disconnected control. Is aviation
physiology not something you acknowledge as an important part of
aviation safety? WTF is up with you? It's *every* bit as important
as putting the airplane together correctly. Sorry, that winds me up a
bit. Of COURSE it's the responsibility of the PIC. Is that clear
enough?

I am familiar with the facts of the accident you speak of. I saw the
flight log and the pics, I know the field (it's huge, maybe 2500 x
1200'). PIC set up really high, really crowded, turned way too early
and dove it straight onto the field (100 mph gps ground speed on short
final). As PIC, I think he probably understands he was responsible
for a) keeping landable areas in reach (check), b) selecting a good
option for landing (check), c) flying an appropriate pattern and
landing (massive fail).

I don't know that pilot personally. The only narrative I've heard
some third hand stuff, but I'm not going into that here.

This accident is, unfortunately, typical of what I have seen on the
contest circuit. The guy still trying to climb at 100 agl in flat
lands over scrub (beautiful fields 1/2 mile away), didn't work out,
busted glider. Two guys trying to do impossible final glides in heavy
rain/sink over wilderness (one busted glider in trees, miraculous
escape by pilot thanks to Gerhard's cockpit, one glider landing in
lake wing tip first, pilot unhurt, glider unhurt). A guy on a contest
ridge mission flying above and down wind of the crest... ridge gets
poochy and he falls off the *back* side of the ridge into miles and
miles of wilderness, gets directed by a heads up pilot into the first
clearing (not really landable, just a place to crash near a house) and
gets away with bumps and bruises, again thanks to Gerhard (plane
destroyed). And then there are two guys who tried to fly complete
landing patterns from around 200 agl on extended downwind. All sorts
of other options available (including a nice big runway going the
other way). One crashes on the numbers in an incipient stall/spin,
walks away with a bad back (another modern cockpit), the other just
barely gets away with it (lift in the pattern) and good thing too
because it's an older ship with an eggshell fuselage. Some of these
guys are friends of mine and probably reading and possibly getting
annoyed (sorry, I'll buy you a beer some time, just glad you were
lucky enough I can still do that).

I do think that there's a common thread here and it has to do with
intellectual tunnel vision. You've all heard of the "monkey trap"
http://tinyurl.com/3ayq6tk? I have my doubts about the reality of
this technique for catching monkeys, but it's useful in assessing
human reactions. I think we all have a tendency to get fixated on
executing a preconceived plan and have difficulty abandoning this for
"plan B". Some, I am convinced, simply don't formulate "plan B", but
that's another story. Some of the best advice I've ever heard for XC
soaring is this: "If your plan isn't working, you'd better get a new
plan" (thanks UH). To be ahead of the game, this needs to be a
continuous process with multiple contingencies, *all* the time. This
is why xc soaring is usually hard work. All of those accidents I just
recounted were completely avoidable, but only "by getting a new
plan". Dehydration, hypoxia, hangovers, or for chrissakes bees in the
cockpit may interfere with this process and it's important to
understand how and why. That doesn't make any of these "an excuse".
"See and avoid" applies to more than traffic.

One of my most satisfying flights in 08, my first season back on the
contest circuit in a few years, was a landout. What pleased me about
it was my decision making after I missed the gear shift, got low, was
pretty darned good. I found a field, scratched, got up a little and
field hopped my way to an eventual private airport landout. I *might*
have been able to make it to the finish. I had a small positive
number on final glide, some likely enroute convergence lift... but it
was hazy, a new to me and very technical site (New Castle) and
although I knew there were a few landable fields on the way home, I
was not going to put myself into a position where I might need to be
finding a place to park from less than 1000' agl at the state of local
knowledge I had at that point in time. My planning and transition to
alternates went really well. Moderate stress, no anxiety. That's the
way it's supposed to work. Result: shiny ship, $65 aeroretrieve,
home in time for dinner.

Back to tunnel vision. What I worry about is that the guys I have
spoken with (about half) after the fact don't always seem to "get
it". I know I'm not the only one to observe this. There's a certain
amount of re-invention of the circumstances going on and I hope that
deep inside they *do* acknowledge what really happened and how they
had a hand in it, had (usually) 2 or more perfectly safe, fairly easy
options to exercise once it should have been completely obvious plan
A wasn't working out. I don't know what to do about that. JJ (bless
him) means well, but safety isn't something that you can write down on
paper or install in a panel. These actions may provide useful aids to
safety conscious individuals but they would not have helped a bit in
the accidents I've recounted above. Those guys already had all the
knowledge, all the information, all the gizmos they needed to be
safe. I hope by now they realize that.

Now Cookie, it seems to me that based on what I've read from you, you
would agree with at least some of the foregoing. Either way it's fine
by me. I have a system, it seems to work for me. I can only work my
ass off to make sure that some day when these words float over my
grave it's not because I put myself there through some unforgivably
stupid act of incompetence or worse.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On 8/25/2011 7:54 AM, JJ Sinclair wrote:

Snip...
Cal City Regionals, pilot flying an Open Cirrus approached the finish
line at 50 feet and about 50 knots, all thought he would just land
straight ahead, but just after he crossed the line, he pulled up,
stalled and killed himself right in front of the finish gate. The only
plausible explanation is he must have slowly bled off his airspeed,
but didn't realize it and thought he was going 150, not 50. No water
bottle was found in the wreckage. Dehydration can do that kind of
thing to the mind.

Another pilot flying a Ventus B was seen about 5pm, circling so low
that he was casting a shadow and then crashed, still circling! Pilot
doesn't remember anything after breakfast that day. Dehydration can do
that kind of thing to the mind.

Another instructor pilot with thousands of hours in gliders stalled
his 1-26 turning final to an off-field landing about 4pm. He hadn't
had a drink of water all day! Dehydration can do that kind of thing to
the mind.

Food (water) for thought,
JJ

It was probably from "Soaring" magazine I began to learn of the
'easy-to-achieve' reality/subtle hazards of dehydration. And I don't know if
JJ's ending example above is of Paul Schweizer's accident in a Texas-based
1-26 'Nationals,' but it sure could be; definitely recommended reading from
the archives. If it happens, it must be possible, and Paul concluded
dehydration was a (the main?) contributor. This in *east* Texas.

After moving to Colorado's Front Range (~13" annual moisture; daytime humidity
not uncommonly in the low teens), I quickly got in the habit of ensuring
(after a breakfast with no diuretics [Kids, can you spell 'caffeine'?] and at
least 16 oz. of fluids) I drank another 24 oz. of cold water (draining a
thermos) before/during/after the (early as possible) rigging process. After
that, I've always PIC-ed with an additional gallon of water. Never guzzled it
all in flight, but more than once have drunk over 75% of it prior to landing.

I recall once forgetting the thermos, rigging, a longish wait for tow,
thrashing around down low for what mentally seemed a *long* time, and finally
opting for a sip from one of my canteens, long before I was able to climb into
air-conditioned comfort. The (not quite scaldingly hot, sun-baked) water
tasted so good, I polished that canteen's 2 quarts off, then and there. One
conclusion: if hot water tastes and feels GOOD, you're majorly dehydrated!

At a Salida (CO) camp involving some longish pushing of gliders, and *after*
employing the ground-thermos strategy, I could feel myself getting
cotton-mouthed come tow time. After about half an hour (on a good day, too;
grnxx!), I voluntarily terminated the flight because I could tell my
thermaling skills simply weren't there. Nor was my brain. Worrisome, scary,
irritating, not fun, easier to achieve than to remedy.

After that, if I can easily sense dehydration pre-tow, I simply don't tow. I'd
rather that decision be a no-brainer, than my flying.

If I'm honest with myself, a good case of dehydration (easy to achieve out
west) has for 25+ years taken me at least 24 hours from which to recover; 48
hours is better.

Dehydration - bad juju (and, not at all uncommon out here, IMO).

Bob W.

JJ and Bob, thank you for bringing up this subject. As you have stated,
dehydration is a real concern for those of us who live in fly here in the
Mountain West.

Before Cookie gets on my case I'll say that from my understanding the
"cause" of the recent Idaho accident was "poor pilot judgment." However,
dehydration could definitely have been a "contributing factor."

I helped assemble the BG-12B involved in the accident. I know it had a
Mountain High electronic O2 system, so I'm assuming it was being used. I
also know that the bird was not equipped with a pilot relief system. I
discussed installation options with the pilot.

I don't know if, or how much drinking water he had onboard. I don't know if
he was adequately hydrated prior to entering the cockpit. (He normally
elected to launch at the end of the launch cycle so he could have easily
been behind the hydration cycle prior to takeoff.)

For those not familiar with the part of the state of Idaho where the
accident occurred, it has an annual rain fall of only 10.25 inches a year.
The field is located 5,500 MSL and the temperature that day was in the low
90s.

Dehydration IS a big deal and as stated in both JJ's and Bob's posts, its'
effects should NOT be taken lightly.

There are many things that we don't really know about this accident;
however, I know that we lost a relatively young commercial glider pilot that
was excited about owning and flying his own sailplane.

My thoughts and prayers are for his sister who is retrieving his pickup and
personal belonging today.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/


"BobW" wrote in message ...

On 8/25/2011 7:54 AM, JJ Sinclair wrote:

Snip...
Cal City Regionals, pilot flying an Open Cirrus approached the finish
line at 50 feet and about 50 knots, all thought he would just land
straight ahead, but just after he crossed the line, he pulled up,
stalled and killed himself right in front of the finish gate. The only
plausible explanation is he must have slowly bled off his airspeed,
but didn't realize it and thought he was going 150, not 50. No water
bottle was found in the wreckage. Dehydration can do that kind of
thing to the mind.

Another pilot flying a Ventus B was seen about 5pm, circling so low
that he was casting a shadow and then crashed, still circling! Pilot
doesn't remember anything after breakfast that day. Dehydration can do
that kind of thing to the mind.

Another instructor pilot with thousands of hours in gliders stalled
his 1-26 turning final to an off-field landing about 4pm. He hadn't
had a drink of water all day! Dehydration can do that kind of thing to
the mind.

Food (water) for thought,
JJ

It was probably from "Soaring" magazine I began to learn of the
'easy-to-achieve' reality/subtle hazards of dehydration. And I don't know if
JJ's ending example above is of Paul Schweizer's accident in a Texas-based
1-26 'Nationals,' but it sure could be; definitely recommended reading from
the archives. If it happens, it must be possible, and Paul concluded
dehydration was a (the main?) contributor. This in *east* Texas.

After moving to Colorado's Front Range (~13" annual moisture; daytime
humidity
not uncommonly in the low teens), I quickly got in the habit of ensuring
(after a breakfast with no diuretics [Kids, can you spell 'caffeine'?] and
at
least 16 oz. of fluids) I drank another 24 oz. of cold water (draining a
thermos) before/during/after the (early as possible) rigging process. After
that, I've always PIC-ed with an additional gallon of water. Never guzzled
it
all in flight, but more than once have drunk over 75% of it prior to
landing.

I recall once forgetting the thermos, rigging, a longish wait for tow,
thrashing around down low for what mentally seemed a *long* time, and
finally
opting for a sip from one of my canteens, long before I was able to climb
into
air-conditioned comfort. The (not quite scaldingly hot, sun-baked) water
tasted so good, I polished that canteen's 2 quarts off, then and there. One
conclusion: if hot water tastes and feels GOOD, you're majorly dehydrated!

At a Salida (CO) camp involving some longish pushing of gliders, and *after*
employing the ground-thermos strategy, I could feel myself getting
cotton-mouthed come tow time. After about half an hour (on a good day, too;
grnxx!), I voluntarily terminated the flight because I could tell my
thermaling skills simply weren't there. Nor was my brain. Worrisome, scary,
irritating, not fun, easier to achieve than to remedy.

After that, if I can easily sense dehydration pre-tow, I simply don't tow.
I'd
rather that decision be a no-brainer, than my flying.

If I'm honest with myself, a good case of dehydration (easy to achieve out
west) has for 25+ years taken me at least 24 hours from which to recover; 48
hours is better.

Dehydration - bad juju (and, not at all uncommon out here, IMO).

Bob W.

On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:03:54 +0000, Peter F wrote:

At 04:07 24 August 2011, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Vne for the Std Libelle is 118kts.

Vne for Std Cirrus is about the same.

135kts is probably quite exciting in either

I thought I'd seen the H.201B Vne given as 123 kts. In fact the BGA Data
Sheets quote 124kts but the B series Operators Manual, as issued by
Glasfaser says 135 kts, 250 km/h

I'm with you: 135kts sounds rather too exciting.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

hazards of dehydration. And I don't know if
JJ's ending example above is of Paul Schweizer's accident in a Texas-based
1-26 'Nationals,'

No, this one was at our annual Air Sailing Sports Contest. I was the
CD that year and I caught the pilot climbing in his 1-26 without a
parachute. I told him he would have to wear a chute in a sanctioned
contest and he reluctantly went and got one. After the accident he was
alone in the desert with badly broken legs and ankles and started
going into shock. He pooped the parachute I made him wear and wrapped
it around himself. That might have saved his life, because it was
quite some time before he was found by a car that was driving on a
seldom used dirt road in the desert (White Rock Road). We launched Air
Sailing Air (tow plane) about 6:PM, with no results, but Vern was
already in the hospital at that time.
Drink will help you Think,
JJ

On Aug 26, 10:34*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
*hazards of dehydration. And I don't know if

JJ's ending example above is of Paul Schweizer's accident in a Texas-based
1-26 'Nationals,'

No, this one was at our annual Air Sailing Sports Contest. I was the
CD that year and I caught the pilot climbing in his 1-26 without a
parachute. I told him he would have to wear a chute in a sanctioned
contest and he reluctantly went and got one. After the accident he was
alone in the desert with badly broken legs and ankles and started
going into shock. He pooped the parachute I made him wear and wrapped
it around himself. That might have saved his life, because it was
quite some time before he was found by a car that was driving on a
seldom used dirt road in the desert (White Rock Road). We launched Air
Sailing Air (tow plane) about 6:PM, with no results, but Vern was
already in the hospital at that time.
Drink will help you Think,
JJ

Hey JJ,

Do you remember were the info is on the research that Chuck Fischer
did on dehydration? Seems like a lot of contest pilots gave blood
for his project and if I remember correctly, everyone was way more
dehydrated than they thought they were. Also, that wrecked Mini-
Nimbus I picked up years ago came from an East Coast pilot who was
severly dehydrated. Nearly killed him and it would be easy to also
pass this off as pilot error has he not survived and admitted to
flying with the vents closed during the contest.

Barry

On 8/26/2011 6:01 PM, drbdanieli wrote:
On Aug 26, 10:34 am, JJ wrote:
hazards of dehydration. And I don't know if

JJ's ending example above is of Paul Schweizer's accident in a Texas-based
1-26 'Nationals,'

No, this one was at our annual Air Sailing Sports Contest. I was the
CD that year and I caught the pilot climbing in his 1-26 without a
parachute. I told him he would have to wear a chute in a sanctioned
contest and he reluctantly went and got one. After the accident he was
alone in the desert with badly broken legs and ankles and started
going into shock. He pooped the parachute I made him wear and wrapped
it around himself. That might have saved his life, because it was
quite some time before he was found by a car that was driving on a
seldom used dirt road in the desert (White Rock Road). We launched Air
Sailing Air (tow plane) about 6:PM, with no results, but Vern was
already in the hospital at that time.
Drink will help you Think,
JJ

Hey JJ,

Do you remember were the info is on the research that Chuck Fischer
did on dehydration? Seems like a lot of contest pilots gave blood
for his project and if I remember correctly, everyone was way more
dehydrated than they thought they were. Also, that wrecked Mini-
Nimbus I picked up years ago came from an East Coast pilot who was
severly dehydrated. Nearly killed him and it would be easy to also
pass this off as pilot error has he not survived and admitted to
flying with the vents closed during the contest.

Barry

Wouldn't one consider dehydration pilot error?

Barry - what has dehydration got to do with flying with the vents closed?

MG

On Aug 26, 7:33*pm, Mike I Green wrote:
On 8/26/2011 6:01 PM, drbdanieli wrote:





On Aug 26, 10:34 am, JJ *wrote:
* hazards of dehydration. And I don't know if

JJ's ending example above is of Paul Schweizer's accident in a Texas-based
1-26 'Nationals,'

No, this one was at our annual Air Sailing Sports Contest. I was the
CD that year and I caught the pilot climbing in his 1-26 without a
parachute. I told him he would have to wear a chute in a sanctioned
contest and he reluctantly went and got one. After the accident he was
alone in the desert with badly broken legs and ankles and started
going into shock. He pooped the parachute I made him wear and wrapped
it around himself. That might have saved his life, because it was
quite some time before he was found by a car that was driving on a
seldom used dirt road in the desert (White Rock Road). We launched Air
Sailing Air (tow plane) about 6:PM, with no results, but Vern was
already in the hospital at that time.
Drink will help you Think,
JJ

Hey JJ,

Do you remember were the info is on the research that Chuck Fischer
did on dehydration? *Seems like *a lot of contest pilots gave blood
for his project and if I remember correctly, everyone was way more
dehydrated than they thought they were. *Also, that wrecked Mini-
Nimbus I picked up years ago came from an East Coast pilot who was
severly dehydrated. *Nearly killed him and it would be easy to also
pass this off as pilot error has he not survived and admitted to
flying with the vents closed during the contest.

Barry

Wouldn't one consider dehydration pilot error?

Barry - what has dehydration got to do with flying with the vents closed?

MG- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mike,

Of course not drinking enough fluids is an error on the pilots part.
My point was to reinforce the significance of dehydration in ones
ablity to fly safely. If you look at the report in the Soaring
archives (August 1980 page 44) you can see the the pilot was unable to
reach his water bottle, doesn't remember anything after circling over
the field he crashed in, and witness' state that the pilot looked like
he quit flying the plane.

Now I guess that sitting in a sauna (vents closed) would cause you to
perspire and dehydrate more rapidly than if you had some fresh air
cooling you down a bit.

I believe you too were there during that contest Chuck was doing the
research on dehydration. Do you have any idea where that info can be
found?

Barry