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Wanting to start a new glider club



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 24th 18, 10:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul T[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 187
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

At 06:29 24 April 2018, Surge wrote:
If it were up to me I'd consider winch launching seeing as those

mountains
=
are very conveniently located.

Some advantages of a winch operation:
1. I would think that a second hand winch would be much cheaper

to
purchase=
than a type certified, tug aircraft. You don't need the latest

SkyLaunch
s=
ystem to get gliders airborne.
2. Operational expenses of a winch are typically a fraction of those

of a
t=
ype certified aircraft. No annual inspections, no mandatory

expensive
overh=
aul schedules, much lower fuel consumption per launch, etc. A tug

costs
mon=
ey to maintain even if it sits in a hangar doing nothing over winter.
3. You don't require a pilot with a tug rating. Sourcing and

retaining tug
=
rated pilots appears to be a problem for a number of soaring

operations
aro=
und the world.

I'm sure Bruno from Utah Soaring Association (Nephi) would be

able to
point=
you in the right direction if you are interested in setting up a

winch
lau=
nching operation.

https://sites.google.com/site/nephisoaring/about-us

or maybe reverse pulley autotow - would be cheapest system to set
up if ground launching is allowed.


Ads
  #12  
Old April 24th 18, 12:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 353
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 2:29:30 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
If it were up to me I'd consider winch launching seeing as those mountains are very conveniently located.

Some advantages of a winch operation:
1. I would think that a second hand winch would be much cheaper to purchase than a type certified, tug aircraft. You don't need the latest SkyLaunch system to get gliders airborne.
2. Operational expenses of a winch are typically a fraction of those of a type certified aircraft. No annual inspections, no mandatory expensive overhaul schedules, much lower fuel consumption per launch, etc. A tug costs money to maintain even if it sits in a hangar doing nothing over winter.
3. You don't require a pilot with a tug rating. Sourcing and retaining tug rated pilots appears to be a problem for a number of soaring operations around the world.

I'm sure Bruno from Utah Soaring Association (Nephi) would be able to point you in the right direction if you are interested in setting up a winch launching operation. https://sites.google.com/site/nephisoaring/about-us


If you don't want to buy a brand new factory built winch or build one for yourself, consider buying a used one and importing it. Take a look he
http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/inde...&sCategory=107
A 40' container with a DG500 in a trailer from Bremerhaven to Charleston, SC cost us under 2,000€. For most winches, a 20' one will do. Granted, you would have to add the transport to MT but that would still be cheaper than buying and maintaining a tug.
Building a winch from scratch is a fun club project but to get it right, seek the advice of those who have done it - this is not a 'hold my beer - watch this' project.

Uli
'AS'
  #13  
Old April 24th 18, 01:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 04:50:11 -0700, AS wrote:

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 2:29:30 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
If it were up to me I'd consider winch launching seeing as those
mountains are very conveniently located.

Some advantages of a winch operation:
1. I would think that a second hand winch would be much cheaper to
purchase than a type certified, tug aircraft. You don't need the latest
SkyLaunch system to get gliders airborne.
2. Operational expenses of a winch are typically a fraction of those of
a type certified aircraft. No annual inspections, no mandatory
expensive overhaul schedules, much lower fuel consumption per launch,
etc. A tug costs money to maintain even if it sits in a hangar doing
nothing over winter.
3. You don't require a pilot with a tug rating. Sourcing and retaining
tug rated pilots appears to be a problem for a number of soaring
operations around the world.

I'm sure Bruno from Utah Soaring Association (Nephi) would be able to
point you in the right direction if you are interested in setting up a
winch launching operation.
https://sites.google.com/site/nephisoaring/about-us


If you don't want to buy a brand new factory built winch or build one
for yourself, consider buying a used one and importing it. Take a look
he
http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/inde...&sCategory=107 A
40' container with a DG500 in a trailer from Bremerhaven to Charleston,
SC cost us under 2,000€. For most winches, a 20' one will do. Granted,
you would have to add the transport to MT but that would still be
cheaper than buying and maintaining a tug.
Building a winch from scratch is a fun club project but to get it right,
seek the advice of those who have done it - this is not a 'hold my beer
- watch this' project.

As part of following Uli's suggestions, its probably worth taking a look
at this Skylaunch page

http://www.skylaunch.com/index2.php

because they have a range of products, from new build winches through re-
engineered older winches to what are effectively short kits for clubs
wanting to save money by building their own, and seeing the range of
possibilities and their cost implications should help your decision-
making.

My UK club has two winches; a new Skylaunch and one of their re-
engineered Tost winches. We operate seven days a week in summer and 5
days a week in winter (weather permitting - which it didn't this year)
and need two winches during the summer so operations are not impacted by
taking a winch offline for servicing.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
  #14  
Old April 24th 18, 03:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 353
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 8:35:29 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 04:50:11 -0700, AS wrote:

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 2:29:30 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
If it were up to me I'd consider winch launching seeing as those
mountains are very conveniently located.

Some advantages of a winch operation:
1. I would think that a second hand winch would be much cheaper to
purchase than a type certified, tug aircraft. You don't need the latest
SkyLaunch system to get gliders airborne.
2. Operational expenses of a winch are typically a fraction of those of
a type certified aircraft. No annual inspections, no mandatory
expensive overhaul schedules, much lower fuel consumption per launch,
etc. A tug costs money to maintain even if it sits in a hangar doing
nothing over winter.
3. You don't require a pilot with a tug rating. Sourcing and retaining
tug rated pilots appears to be a problem for a number of soaring
operations around the world.

I'm sure Bruno from Utah Soaring Association (Nephi) would be able to
point you in the right direction if you are interested in setting up a
winch launching operation.
https://sites.google.com/site/nephisoaring/about-us


If you don't want to buy a brand new factory built winch or build one
for yourself, consider buying a used one and importing it. Take a look
he
http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/inde...&sCategory=107 A
40' container with a DG500 in a trailer from Bremerhaven to Charleston,
SC cost us under 2,000€. For most winches, a 20' one will do. Granted,
you would have to add the transport to MT but that would still be
cheaper than buying and maintaining a tug.
Building a winch from scratch is a fun club project but to get it right,
seek the advice of those who have done it - this is not a 'hold my beer
- watch this' project.

As part of following Uli's suggestions, its probably worth taking a look
at this Skylaunch page

http://www.skylaunch.com/index2.php

because they have a range of products, from new build winches through re-
engineered older winches to what are effectively short kits for clubs
wanting to save money by building their own, and seeing the range of
possibilities and their cost implications should help your decision-
making.

My UK club has two winches; a new Skylaunch and one of their re-
engineered Tost winches. We operate seven days a week in summer and 5
days a week in winter (weather permitting - which it didn't this year)
and need two winches during the summer so operations are not impacted by
taking a winch offline for servicing.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


Martin is correct. I met with the Skylaunch engineering team at past SSA-conventions and they would be a good company to partner with, if you want to rehabilitate and upgrade an older winch.
The same goes for Roman's Design made winches. Our local CAP wing had a Roman's Design winch for a season and it was a very well built unit. Either way, getting a commercial manufacturer involved will have the advantage of receiving an engineered solution that works but at a cost. So if your group is made up from folks that have two left hands with only thumbs on them, it is best to spend the money and get professional help. I have seen way too many examples of winches thrown together by shade-tree mechanics who thought they knew what they were doing.

Uli
'AS'
  #15  
Old April 24th 18, 04:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 135
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

These are all great suggestions. Thanks for all the responses so far. Keep them coming!
  #16  
Old April 24th 18, 04:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,455
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

RE* #3 & 4:* Or you could have a winch operation.

On 4/23/2018 6:26 PM, 2G wrote:
On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 1:56:24 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
Hi everyone

I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "#1glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

Your #1 issue is finding a CFIG in your area, which you can use the FAA airmen search feature to find.
#2 you are going to need a glider (DUH!).
#3 you will need tow pilots who are CURRENT to tow, or can get current.
#4 you will need a tow plane, which is a subject all onto itself.
#5 you will need to incorporate to limit liability.

These are not insignificant issues, but clubs have overcome them. Sometimes there are suitable aircraft locally, such as a Super Cub, that can be used for towing (given a supportive owner). The glider must be a two-place so you can give instruction, and if you operate commercially it must be certificated.

Tom


--
Dan, 5J
  #17  
Old April 24th 18, 04:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 515
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 8:00:43 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
These are all great suggestions. Thanks for all the responses so far. Keep them coming!


You might try approaching another nearby club to have a weekend camp at your airport. Have a charity fund raising event where rides are given and donations from the rides go to the charity. This will likely be covered by your local media. Everybody that gets a ride, or their parents are potential new club members.

You need to do a financial analysis to determine what initiation fees and dues should be. A place to start are other clubs. Most will share that data.

Tom
  #18  
Old April 24th 18, 10:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
john firth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 53
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
Hi everyone

I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?


Car tow might be the most economical way to launch, if the a/p mgt.. will let you; looks like 5000ft of hard top, which is more than adequate.
Moreover, driver training is easier than starting a newbie on a winch.
JMF
  #19  
Old April 25th 18, 07:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 286
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

This is all cart before the horse stuff. To start a club the first thing you need to establish is a group of committed individuals with shared goals and sufficient funds and competences. Then, before expending effort and money, you need to thing long and hard about how you are going to train members and keep attracting more new members to cover the high drop out rate that seems endemic in gliding. Then the group needs to judge whether you are going to have the human and financial resources to cover all the other stuff involved in running a gliding operation - maintenance, regulatory, management etc. Then you need a site. Then you can decide on what hardware is most suitable.

  #20  
Old April 25th 18, 08:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 135
Default Wanting to start a new glider club

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 12:39:57 AM UTC-6, wrote:
This is all cart before the horse stuff. To start a club the first thing you need to establish is a group of committed individuals with shared goals and sufficient funds and competences. Then, before expending effort and money, you need to thing long and hard about how you are going to train members and keep attracting more new members to cover the high drop out rate that seems endemic in gliding. Then the group needs to judge whether you are going to have the human and financial resources to cover all the other stuff involved in running a gliding operation - maintenance, regulatory, management etc. Then you need a site. Then you can decide on what hardware is most suitable.


Thanks for your thoughts. How would you suggest I go about finding a "committed group of individuals with shared goals and sufficient funds and competences" in the middle of an Indian Reservation? What would you suggest would be minimum "sufficient funds"? What would you suggest would be a minimum of "committed individuals"? I'm interested in your thoughts and ideas. I'm very excited about the potential for this, and when the time comes to literally get this project off the ground, I'd like to already have a lot of interest in the concept in the area, and a large potential audience to draw from.
 




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