ASG-29E vs. JS-1Jet Sustainer

As Sean mentioned the FES on the LAK-17b is another option and it truly is an outstanding sustainer. There have been no issues using it out west over the past 3 years. The ship is based at Moriarty (Elevation: 6,200 feet) and it has performed as advertised. In addition to the LAK-17b and the Silent 2 Electro, the FES is now available on the Ventus 2cxa. Thanks - Renny



On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 12:13:46 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
If the new 29e has an electric start that would be worth a few extra points. Have not heard of that either. You clearly are thinking new now?

Great points about climb limitations out west. I have heard that about many sustainers out west. Obviously, the jet would have a tremendous advantage there.

The Hph jet is pretty darn impressive glider and is far also less expensive than the JS1. Their jet has been around for much longer. Hph doesn't get a fair share of interest in the US (worse than the JS-1). The performance and quality is outstanding from what have read.

The Lak17b FES is also very, very impressive. Not sure how FES performs out west but it is likely far better than a rotax sustainer. Nothing on the market beats FES in price/performance and practicality. Well, perhaps the jet does if you can afford it and if your looking to fly out west often.

If only the Handicap committee would give FES a reasonably fair handicap! Right now it actually rates HIGHER than pure (LOL) due to higher gross weight. If you don't care primarily about contest results, the 17b FES is the glider I would buy. To be clear I say that referring to FES drag impact and handicap issues, not pure glider performance. You would save some dough it has 21 meter wings as well. Such a bummer that they have never really bothered to prove the performance of their designs. A few very competitive pilots have gliders coming. That will be interesting to watch.

I'm going to place a wager. Gerry is going to order a JS-1! Anyone have $20 bucks they want to lose?

:-)

Well, the important distinction with the jet is that even in the rare
case that it does not start, you are still flying a high-performance
sailplane. Can't say the same about the piston engine.


On 28/01/2015 00:30, Sean Fidler wrote:
On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 4:36:21 PM UTC-5, Gerry Simpson wrote:
I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty weighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I would like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values, performance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?

I know of a JS-1 that had some kind of compressor stall and would not start in a contest last season. That gave me some pause. You might want to look into that. It is a new system. Call me again on that if you wish.

With the 29e, of course, you have to do the "dive" to start which means you have to be over a suitable field at 1500 ft. AGL min to do a truly safe start procedure.

As far as performance, I would say they are very, very equal. Of course the 29 is 18/15 and the JS-1 is 18/21. If I had to choose 2 classes I would probably choose 18/Open but of course you also have to pay a lot extra for that span (30k). Trailer is very tight as well with both 18 and 21 meter tips onboard.

Resale price has to be comparable (depreciation) for the 18m although the edge in ease of sale would likely go to the 29.

Definitely apples to apples. Just one is covered in caramel (jet and 21m)! You have to pay extra for the caramel of course.

Personally, I dont think you could go wrong with either. The cool factor is probably with the JS-1. The smart play might be the 29 if your worried about price and selling easily soon at a good price.

This is probably nothing new for you. Hopefully some others chime in and help you here. I wonder has anyone owned both gliders?

Dont forget about the HpH 18m jet either. This might be worth some thought too.

My 2 cents...

Don't get me wrong - The ASG 29 is a great glider but its basically already
a 20 year old design. It's really just a 27 with some extra long tips.

I have also heard of many complaints about the engine, although the
electric start is at least some attempt to make it better when you really
need it. And as already pointed out, if you are flying out west, the rate
of climb will be very slow.

Schleichers and Schempps go back a long that way but you kind of have to
feel that they are resting on their laurels. The JS brothers eat, breathe
and sleep their JS dream and apart from the 50 ideas they already have to
make the glider better they are coming up with more each day.

The jet system is also not 100 percent yet but I think that with the
partnership at M & D and with the ever greater numbers flying that the
problems will be ironed out. - With the jet it is no problem to climb, even
heavy and at high altitude. And best of all you can pop the jet for a few
extra beat ups at the end of the day!

Glider wise the new 18m evo tips bring the performance up to that of at
least the ASG. The JS1 may have a little better feel in the climb though
and even when its heavy you can pull just a little bit in those tight
thermals and get away with it.

A well flown JS 1c 21m at Ely can rewrite the records books. As proven in
the last worlds if thermal strengths are better than 2 knots there is no
better glider (except for maybe Concordia)! So for the little extra it's a
bargin






At 21:36 27 January 2015, Gerry Simpson wrote:
I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty
w=
eighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I
w=
ould like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values,
perfor=
mance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?

Don't get me wrong - The ASG 29 is a great glider but its basically already
a 20 year old design. It's really just a 27 with some extra long tips.

I have also heard of many complaints about the engine, although the
electric start is at least some attempt to make it better when you really
need it. And as already pointed out, if you are flying out west, the rate
of climb will be very slow.

Schleichers and Schempps go back a long that way but you kind of have to
feel that they are resting on their laurels. The JS brothers eat, breathe
and sleep their JS dream and apart from the 50 ideas they already have to
make the glider better they are coming up with more each day.

The jet system is also not 100 percent yet but I think that with the
partnership at M & D and with the ever greater numbers flying that the
problems will be ironed out. - With the jet it is no problem to climb, even
heavy and at high altitude. And best of all you can pop the jet for a few
extra beat ups at the end of the day!

Glider wise the new 18m evo tips bring the performance up to that of at
least the ASG. The JS1 may have a little better feel in the climb though
and even when its heavy you can pull just a little bit in those tight
thermals and get away with it.

A well flown JS 1c 21m at Ely can rewrite the records books. As proven in
the last worlds if thermal strengths are better than 2 knots there is no
better glider (except for maybe Concordia)! So for the little extra it's a
bargin






At 21:36 27 January 2015, Gerry Simpson wrote:
I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty
w=
eighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I
w=
ould like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values,
perfor=
mance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?

Don't get me wrong - The ASG 29 is a great glider but its basically already
a 20 year old design. It's really just a 27 with some extra long tips.

I have also heard of many complaints about the engine, although the
electric start is at least some attempt to make it better when you really
need it. And as already pointed out, if you are flying out west, the rate
of climb will be very slow.

Schleichers and Schempps go back a long that way but you kind of have to
feel that they are resting on their laurels. The JS brothers eat, breathe
and sleep their JS dream and apart from the 50 ideas they already have to
make the glider better they are coming up with more each day.

The jet system is also not 100 percent yet but I think that with the
partnership at M & D and with the ever greater numbers flying that the
problems will be ironed out. - With the jet it is no problem to climb, even
heavy and at high altitude. And best of all you can pop the jet for a few
extra beat ups at the end of the day!

Glider wise the new 18m evo tips bring the performance up to that of at
least the ASG. The JS1 may have a little better feel in the climb though
and even when its heavy you can pull just a little bit in those tight
thermals and get away with it.

A well flown JS 1c 21m at Ely can rewrite the records books. As proven in
the last worlds if thermal strengths are better than 2 knots there is no
better glider (except for maybe Concordia)! So for the little extra it's a
bargin






At 21:36 27 January 2015, Gerry Simpson wrote:
I am very interested in purchasing one or the other and having difficulty
w=
eighing the merits each of because of no direct experience with either. I
w=
ould like to have some advice concerning reliability, resale values,
perfor=
mance and build quality. Can I compare apples and apples with these two?

Comments from 40 hours or so in JS1B and C, more in the 29, and even more in a 26E:
Both the gliders you mention are very nice to fly. Bold, caps and underline very.
A raised and stopped prop is a big spoiler. A raised and stopped jet is not.
The flap/aileron mixer has better glide path control and aileron control in landing flap setting than flaperons can give you.
You will be amazed by the handling and comfort of both of these machines. Flew JS1 before my own 29 was registered and thought I may have made a mistake, but now feel the 29 is what the 27 always wanted to be.
On the ASH26E newsgroup's tech website there is documentation of my ASH26E (now "DEE") fire extinguisher installation. I wish more people installed something like that, or manufacturers would give buyers that option.
Jim

On Thursday, 29 January 2015 09:01:42 UTC+10, JS wrote:
Comments from 40 hours or so in JS1B and C, more in the 29, and even more in a 26E:


Jim, how do cockpit sizes compare bewteen the 26E, 29 and JS1? I am a wide body model and just about have to lube up to get in my LS6 - if I'm dreaming of a new ship I may as well dream about one that fits.

Thanks Ben

Ben, the LS6A was always a favorite glider of mine, had one for 12 years. But after flying ASW27 the LS6 felt claustrophobic. A mod to the seat back somewhat fixed that. The JS1 is not quite as large a cockpit as the ASH26, even though from the outside the fuselages appear the same. But both JS1 and ASW27/28/29 fuselage should feel spacious after flying the 6. The LS6C seat back apparently stolen from LS8 makes that cockpit feel larger too.
If your shoes are wide, ASW27/28/29 rudder pedals may require you to narrow the soles of your shoes (I use a die grinder) to fit between the cable guides and the tabs on the inside of the pedals. I don't remember doing this in the 26 or JS1, but that may have been choice of footwear at the time.
With the 29 I fly middle seatback position at the bottom, I have raised the adjustment cross-tube 1 hole on 27 and 29 so the seat tilts further back. It's necessary to grind a bit out of the right side flange of the seat back to accommodate the Oxygen regulator if you do this. My pedals are not in full forward position. I'm 6'0" (1.83m) tall and about 173Lbs (78.5kg). As they say, your mileage may vary.
The JS1 seat back is not adjustable in flight. Nor are some of the 29s I've seen.
Regarding Oxygen, the JS1 uses a smaller O2 cylinder than anything else I've run into. There's a mod to put a second cylinder in the fuselage, but that will not work if you have the jet sustainer.
Forgot to mention in the previous post, the JS1 has a couple of W+B related items that are notable.
There is a second 5 liter tail tank which cannot be dumped in flight, so you can adjust the CG to your preference and it won't change when you dump the water ballast you've correctly loaded using the fantastic spreadsheet Jonker Sailplanes provides. This is particularly useful for a partnership or syndicate.
Jim


On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 5:59:28 PM UTC-8, Ben Coleman wrote:
On Thursday, 29 January 2015 09:01:42 UTC+10, JS wrote:
Comments from 40 hours or so in JS1B and C, more in the 29, and even more in a 26E:


Jim, how do cockpit sizes compare bewteen the 26E, 29 and JS1? I am a wide body model and just about have to lube up to get in my LS6 - if I'm dreaming of a new ship I may as well dream about one that fits.

Thanks Ben

Thanks for the info, very informative.

Regards Ben

On Thursday, 29 January 2015 14:19:14 UTC+10, JS wrote:
Ben, the LS6A was always a favorite glider of mine, had one for 12 years. But after flying ASW27 the LS6 felt claustrophobic. A mod to the seat back somewhat fixed that. The JS1 is not quite as large a cockpit as the ASH26, even though from the outside the fuselages appear the same. But both JS1 and ASW27/28/29 fuselage should feel spacious after flying the 6. The LS6C seat back apparently stolen from LS8 makes that cockpit feel larger too.
If your shoes are wide, ASW27/28/29 rudder pedals may require you to narrow the soles of your shoes (I use a die grinder) to fit between the cable guides and the tabs on the inside of the pedals. I don't remember doing this in the 26 or JS1, but that may have been choice of footwear at the time.
With the 29 I fly middle seatback position at the bottom, I have raised the adjustment cross-tube 1 hole on 27 and 29 so the seat tilts further back.. It's necessary to grind a bit out of the right side flange of the seat back to accommodate the Oxygen regulator if you do this. My pedals are not in full forward position. I'm 6'0" (1.83m) tall and about 173Lbs (78.5kg). As they say, your mileage may vary.
The JS1 seat back is not adjustable in flight. Nor are some of the 29s I've seen.
Regarding Oxygen, the JS1 uses a smaller O2 cylinder than anything else I've run into. There's a mod to put a second cylinder in the fuselage, but that will not work if you have the jet sustainer.
Forgot to mention in the previous post, the JS1 has a couple of W+B related items that are notable.
There is a second 5 liter tail tank which cannot be dumped in flight, so you can adjust the CG to your preference and it won't change when you dump the water ballast you've correctly loaded using the fantastic spreadsheet Jonker Sailplanes provides. This is particularly useful for a partnership or syndicate.
Jim


On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 5:59:28 PM UTC-8, Ben Coleman wrote:
On Thursday, 29 January 2015 09:01:42 UTC+10, JS wrote:
Comments from 40 hours or so in JS1B and C, more in the 29, and even more in a 26E:


Jim, how do cockpit sizes compare bewteen the 26E, 29 and JS1? I am a wide body model and just about have to lube up to get in my LS6 - if I'm dreaming of a new ship I may as well dream about one that fits.

Thanks Ben

Of course you could also get your order in for the new Ventus 3?